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Flysurfer Soul

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nothing2seehere
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby nothing2seehere » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:57 pm

jbrodin wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 12:47 pm
nothing2seehere wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 10:40 am
jbrodin wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:52 am
Question: The long mixertest completely screwed up my Soul, I got the advise to try to shorten the b-row adjuster by a couple of cms, which actually did the fix. On occasion I still have issues with the tips folding in, I am considering just further shortening the B-row until it is good. What if I go to far, what would be the typical consequence of the B-row being too short?
When you did your mixer test did you use a single stake point or two at the pigtail end (metal rings)? I got weird results at first doing the mixer test when I tried to use a single point. Each time I did it it would be out by a different amount.
I do the mixer test by fixing the front and back lines together at one point, closer to the bar than the metal rings, but I adjust the back lines so that the A and Z knots on the kite by the markings on the bridals are equally far from the fixed point. As I understand the long mixer test now it is all about making the B and C knots on the bridle align with the A and Z knots. The first time I did this I made the B and C lines about 3-4 cm longer each, which completely ruined the kite, even though it was supposedly fixed as per the long mixertest. Upon advice I gradually made the B row shorter again, until it was better. But, as I started out saying - it is not perfect, and it would be nice tho have method that goes beyond the mixertest.
I could be wrong, but I'm not sure you would get the same geometry changes that way. Worth trying it the normal way to see if you get different results. The mixer test 'should' get you a good result for most tunes. If its not, you might be at the stage of needing to adjust the PMAs but that's where you might want to contact flysurfer to get further help. I think the idea of the PMAs is that you can make it fly properly with a working mixer test. At that point you have a consistent flying point that you can move back to by a simple test.

jbrodin
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jbrodin » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:18 am

Im picking up again the discussion from the posts just behind:

Is there anyone that can report that the long mixertest actually made their Soul fly "like new"?

I have plenty of feedback from people that have had similar experiences to me - that the mixertest does not account for how the bridal lines shrink unequally. When I did the long mixertest it was because I had had the kite for a while, and because I kite a lot in marginal conditions, where keeping the kite in the air and squeezing out every bit of performance mattered. According to the test I made both the B and C row several cms longer, meaning that the test would suggest that the bridals on those rows had shrunk more than the others. The change made the kite useless, but I have restored it by gradually making the B-row shorter again, and also slightly the C-row.

I am in other words learning about how the whole thing works, and what I come to is:

The long mixertest seems like a too simplistic approach. What would be helpful is a table with descriptions of faulty behaviors, and corresponding explanations of the mechanisms and remedies to pursue.
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby Janus » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:10 am

Please take a look at the vid which Armin has made about how to do a mixer test, short or long.
It should not be done with one single stake for front and back line.

Two stakes, one for front and one for back, put them little apart.
I do them 5-10cm apart, align A and Z, then adjust Band C so all is equal again.
Fly the kite, all good leave it that way, not good? --> shorten C with 1cm, B will follow with 2:1. repeat if neccessary
8)

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby joriws » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:40 am

On single anchor mixer lines aka spare part lines are too long. Armin imitates with two stakes flying positions of affach points and as they are separated mixer lines are shorter relative what "kite sees".

Naturally calculating the offset with single stake is quite simple for one mixer lines but two. Maybe it is just easier to use two stakes.

nothing2seehere
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby nothing2seehere » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:00 pm

jbrodin wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:18 am
Im picking up again the discussion from the posts just behind:

Is there anyone that can report that the long mixertest actually made their Soul fly "like new"?

I have plenty of feedback from people that have had similar experiences to me - that the mixertest does not account for how the bridal lines shrink unequally. When I did the long mixertest it was because I had had the kite for a while, and because I kite a lot in marginal conditions, where keeping the kite in the air and squeezing out every bit of performance mattered. According to the test I made both the B and C row several cms longer, meaning that the test would suggest that the bridals on those rows had shrunk more than the others. The change made the kite useless, but I have restored it by gradually making the B-row shorter again, and also slightly the C-row.

I am in other words learning about how the whole thing works, and what I come to is:

The long mixertest seems like a too simplistic approach. What would be helpful is a table with descriptions of faulty behaviors, and corresponding explanations of the mechanisms and remedies to pursue.
My soul was second hand when I bought it (maybe 20 hours use), but despite the seller claiming to have done a mixer test when selling it, it flew noticeably better after doing a mixer test and restoring parity of the settings. In my case a short mixer test was enough to restore it to factory settings. I've since only bothered with long mixer tests because its just as easy if you are getting the kite out anyway.

My first attempts at a mixer test didn't go so well because I only used a single anchor point. I couldn't understand why I could adjust the mixer, change to the other side, change back to check and it would be out of tune again. If your method gives you consistent repeatable results every time then its likely to be good, but I noticed even the difference between a tent peg through the metal ring and a small loop attached just above the ring was enough to make it inconsistent for me.
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rnelias
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby rnelias » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:58 pm

jbrodin wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:18 am
Im picking up again the discussion from the posts just behind:

Is there anyone that can report that the long mixertest actually made their Soul fly "like new"?

I have plenty of feedback from people that have had similar experiences to me - that the mixertest does not account for how the bridal lines shrink unequally. When I did the long mixertest it was because I had had the kite for a while, and because I kite a lot in marginal conditions, where keeping the kite in the air and squeezing out every bit of performance mattered. According to the test I made both the B and C row several cms longer, meaning that the test would suggest that the bridals on those rows had shrunk more than the others. The change made the kite useless, but I have restored it by gradually making the B-row shorter again, and also slightly the C-row.

I am in other words learning about how the whole thing works, and what I come to is:

The long mixertest seems like a too simplistic approach. What would be helpful is a table with descriptions of faulty behaviors, and corresponding explanations of the mechanisms and remedies to pursue.
mixer test is really a confusing topic...

From my understanding, in the long mixer test (what Armin calls "bridle test"), It's impossible to make A and Z, the reference lines, dead equal if they're not exactly the same lenght. As I've never had the money to buy a Soul brand new, I don't know if they come from Flysurfer with these lines with the same lenght. It could be checked by summing up the line segment lenghts on the lineplan (i'll do it later). Therefore, the long mixer (or bridle) test must be done with two stakes 5-10cm apart from each other to simulate the same state of the kite flying with the bar attached. With these two stakes we can now find the pivotal point -- where A and Z join each other to make a reference point for C and D.

I have two second hand Souls. 12 and 15m. The 12m I've managed to tune after trying the mixer test 3 times. (I think) I've learned how the mixer test works by trial and error, however, my 15m is still flying like sh*t. It's pulling more on the left side when the kite is under load, which suggests that the left front line may be a bit shorter than the right one. I've already redid the long mixer test but had no chance to test the kite again.
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jbrodin (Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:53 pm)
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SolarSet
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby SolarSet » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:02 pm

Yes please don’t do mixer test if you don’t know exactly what to do. If you anchor steering and front line same place (not 10cm apart like guys say above) you will likely fuckup you mixed adjustment and kite will fly worst that it does now.
I would try to find someone who can show it to you first how to do it as it took me few attempts to figure it out.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby downunder » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:28 pm

Well,

Put it this way, the Dealer tested my 10m, and the short mixer was done a few times.

It flys like crap. So much so that I do not want to sell it to innocent buyer. The tips are collapsing ALL the time. The LE looks flat, like it has square LE profile, not rounded. Which looks like no pressure at LE.

So, got the lines plan, all TE off by 2, 3 or 4 cm.
All A lines off by 1 or 2 cm. All shorter tho.
Need to check the rest.

Sorry. It is just wasting my time riding it. No wonder all my buddies moved to LEIs. Low maintenance, high joy.

End of rant.

D.

rnelias
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby rnelias » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:40 pm

downunder wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:28 pm
Well,

Put it this way, the Dealer tested my 10m, and the short mixer was done a few times.

It flys like crap. So much so that I do not want to sell it to innocent buyer. The tips are collapsing ALL the time. The LE looks flat, like it has square LE profile, not rounded. Which looks like no pressure at LE.

So, got the lines plan, all TE off by 2, 3 or 4 cm.
All A lines off by 1 or 2 cm. All shorter tho.
Need to check the rest.

Sorry. It is just wasting my time riding it. No wonder all my buddies moved to LEIs. Low maintenance, high joy.

End of rant.

D.
Flysurfer could/should sell the line segments in groups or sets as replacement. It would be easier to revive a dead Soul without having to hassle with a bunch of thin line splicing

jbrodin
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jbrodin » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:51 pm

Janus wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:10 am
Please take a look at the vid which Armin has made about how to do a mixer test, short or long.
It should not be done with one single stake for front and back line.

Two stakes, one for front and one for back, put them little apart.
I do them 5-10cm apart, align A and Z, then adjust Band C so all is equal again.
Fly the kite, all good leave it that way, not good? --> shorten C with 1cm, B will follow with 2:1. repeat if neccessary
8)
I would think that my approach is equivalent to the two stakes (in fact Armin says as much, he just proposes the two stakes as a method to get around the fact that the A and Z row probably no longer are equally long):
I attach the front and steering lines together, but with an offset to one of them, putting the knots on the kite on the A and Z row at equal distances from the fixed point. As I do this for both sides simultaneously it also makes it easy to look for asymmetry.

But I shall give it a go with the two stakes ;).


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