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Flysurfer Soul

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kitexpert
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby kitexpert » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:30 am

foilholio wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:53 pm
Interesting the Soul can have a similar effect to the Psycho4.
No. Soul does not have anything like Psycho4 in its wingtips. Very different kites. Soul adjustments are just fine tuning, fortunately.
foilholio wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:53 pm

Yes except in the case like with the pyscho4 on the tips.
When depowered Psycho4 wingtips "fly on their own", not much supported by bridle. So it is questionable if bridle adjustments affect much (more like they can disturb the effect) or do the wingtips affect much on how kite drifts, I doubt it. Anyway this question is quite meaningless because P4 is so old and wingtips of it were considered weirdly behaving by many and FS don't produce anything like it anymore. FS has had some technically interesting solutions which are just found out being not so useful.
foilholio wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:53 pm
Limit of travel for B depowered at the mixer as measured past A. I could call it the mixer depower limit, or B limit, or B depower limit. I think it is important to mention B. You measure from A to B, so I just call it the AB depower limit.
OK. There is for sure a limit in which kite AoA (and line rows with it) can reach. If mixer pulley lines are long enough - not restricting kite - it is not very relevant to know what it is. I don't get how to measure it in flight and why it should be done.

foilholio wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:53 pm
Well for 21m kites it could be considered a little too short especially when it shrinks to 90cm. The real factor is the cord length on the kite, so large kites with lower AR need more pulley line length.
Shrinkage changes camber setting so it is not acceptable and must be corrected. It is of course true bigger kites need more length for their mixer, but 100cm SPL has proved itself to be long enough. In principle bigger kites need longer mixers but actually real factor is bar sheeting range (with the trimmer), it rules how much AoA change there is in the kite.
foilholio wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:53 pm
I don't think you have understood what I have said. I am increasing the depower at the mixer, that is most definitely possible. Yes for certain once lines are slack you have most of the depower. I mean there is I think some part in amount of slack giving slightly more travel. There is more slack to be gained in the mixer and then when the kite is deep in the window the lines can be tighter than they are at the edge.
Depowering means you make kite fly at lower AoA, this happens by loosening back lines by sheeting bar out/using trimmer. Then mixer forwards this movement to the canopy itself, mixer is only needed because foil kite is soft and supported by the bridle (though there is some additional bonuses of it). When depowering has happened to its most effective manner kite flies on its A line row only. Then mixer (and possible tunings) are ineffective because all pulley lines and brakes are loose. How much kite can depower or tolerate low AoA's does not have much or anything to do with the mixer, it is mostly a kite build-in property. If kite can't tolerate flying on A line row only some additional support from B line row is needed, how much it have to be tested by flying and adjusting. In this situation some (at least theoretical) depowerability is lost.

BTW FS's "Triple depower" is a bit misleading, camber change is not for depower but for power, kite increases camber when powered. When kite is depowered camber is the "original" shape of the airfoil.
foilholio wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:53 pm
Yes the wear on the pulley line is much less than the length of it. This does not necessarily mean that the pulley is restricted to that worn section just that most of it's time is there. The pulley may or may not hit the physical limit, it can and I have observed it but it might not. It does however hit some sort of limit, the fact you can measure the actually physical limit at the mixer and use that does not make it less applicable if the kite hits that limit or not.
It is not reasonable to have any pulley lines hit to limits because after it pulley doesn't work, it becomes fixed. Natural limits are those which derive from kite itself: lowest AoA kite can tolerate or L/D allows and highest AoA which kite can have before backstalling.
foilholio wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:53 pm
I don't really see it as difficult. If you designed kites long enough you would have some angles to achieve and could calculate the lengths needed to do so. The basic theory is to achieve desired depower and relaunch.
Perhaps complex is better word. In practice there is however no need to do such calculations because mixer length is not critical at all, as long as it is not too short.

That is good point mixer line lengths affect to kite behaves in parking and relaunch situations, but again normal mixers work well. Fifth line/single front line systems are not related to mixers much or not at all.

foilholio wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:53 pm
My ideas for a new mixer are for minimizing lengths and improving adjustments. I have no radical ideas to use new ratios etc. It is just basic stuff like should I adjust the length of B main or B pulley line and how. If I have no adjustment on B main then I can trim the whole mixer down in length. Say remove 30cm from the B main so too can I remove 30cm from A C and Z mains. Maybe then the angles become wrong from the mixer to the kite, but alternately I can use lighter main lines and keep the same lengths.
Minimizing lengths is ok but not very relevant issue. Angles from kite are also not critical because most if not all commercial kites have so long primary and secondary (tertiary) bridles. It also doesn't matter if B pulley line is shorter and B mains longer, or vice versa as long as pulley line is not too short for its functionality. if B mains is very short adjustability is difficult to make or it becomes impossible.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jakemoore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:53 am

kitexpert wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:50 pm
Apparently there is no "triple" depower, just depower (perhaps double depower? :) ). The goal has been to make more solid feel than before, which doesn't fit very well to changing PA. Also 2D shape and canopy curve hint it isn't there.
kitexpert wrote: No. Soul does not have anything like Psycho4 in its wingtips. Very different kites. Soul adjustments are just fine tuning, fortunately.
Armin Harich wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:14 am
The SOUL has like all our foilkites a Tripple Depower. The Airfoil change the AOA like LEI Kites. Its chamberline and bend the airfoil while powering up. It also increase the projected Area, while powering up.
PMA effect how much change in projected area there is. Shortening the bottom skin PMA make the Soul wingtips behave more like Psycho4. Speed4DLX had a similar effect that could be enhanced or reduced with the PMA.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jakemoore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:24 am

kitexpert wrote: BTW FS's "Triple depower" is a bit misleading, camber change is not for depower but for power, kite increases camber when powered. When kite is depowered camber is the "original" shape of the
I find it most useful to consider tuning kites from the opposite point of view. That is to say the airfoil and bridle are best tuned for max performance in the powered state. Bar and lines are tuned with the bar at max power. The mixer test even before it was named is performed at max power bar lines equal. The long mixer test again before it was named performed as if the kite is max power bar at the chicken loop and 4 lines equal.

As the bar moves away the kite is depowered. Even the name from the first foil kites with pulley mixers: ”depower kites”.

As the kite is depowered the AOA decreases just as a tube kite. Furthermore the camber decreases and reflex is introduced both by the shape of the cell walls and then relative movement of the bridle galleries. On triple depower kites as in FS and CA Smart and Wave profile momentum folds the tips reducing projected area.

Yes when the wing is depowered the kite takes the form of its sewn shape and as adjusted by PMA. But the tuning and bridle changes to get back to the intended design recover the original shape of the powered kite.

I understand the distinction between viewing the kite as powering up when pulling the bar or powering when pushing away is purely a matter of convention, and arguing about it on the internet is pedantic at best. However, I find viewing the mixer function as depowering helps achieve better results when tuning a kite for performance which occurs when the kite is powered.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby kitexpert » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:17 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:24 am

I find it most useful to consider tuning kites from the opposite point of view. That is to say the airfoil and bridle are best tuned for max performance in the powered state. Bar and lines are tuned with the bar at max power. The mixer test even before it was named is performed at max power bar lines equal. The long mixer test again before it was named performed as if the kite is max power bar at the chicken loop and 4 lines equal.

As the bar moves away the kite is depowered. Even the name from the first foil kites with pulley mixers: ”depower kites”.

As the kite is depowered the AOA decreases just as a tube kite. Furthermore the camber decreases and reflex is introduced both by the shape of the cell walls and then relative movement of the bridle galleries. On triple depower kites as in FS and CA Smart and Wave profile momentum folds the tips reducing projected area.

Yes when the wing is depowered the kite takes the form of its sewn shape and as adjusted by PMA. But the tuning and bridle changes to get back to the intended design recover the original shape of the powered kite.

I understand the distinction between viewing the kite as powering up when pulling the bar or powering when pushing away is purely a matter of convention, and arguing about it on the internet is pedantic at best. However, I find viewing the mixer function as depowering helps achieve better results when tuning a kite for performance which occurs when the kite is powered.
That is a good post. It really is a bit hair-splitting to discuss if changes are for power or depower. Perhaps best leave this subject here.

Mixer (bridle) significance decreases when kite is depowered, then kite (wing) itself mostly defines how much depower there is and most importantly if kite is stable or not. When kite is powered it is much easier, only limiting factor is when kite backstalls. When depowerable kites came it was not only to invent mixer system to allow change of AoA but to make kites stable enough for it. You practically can't make fixed bridle high camber foil kite depowerable kite by adding a mixer, it isn't stable enough. That kind of kite just front collapses immediately when bar is sheeted out.

I've worked with these for last 15 years, different pulley ratios, different kites, made several of them from the scratch (even pulleys) etc. so I think I should know something. For design point of view mixers and tweaking with them is not at all crucial things. AR, airfoil, cell shape/cell count are which really matters how kite performs.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby kitexpert » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:33 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:53 am
kitexpert wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:50 pm
Apparently there is no "triple" depower, just depower (perhaps double depower? :) ). The goal has been to make more solid feel than before, which doesn't fit very well to changing PA. Also 2D shape and canopy curve hint it isn't there.
kitexpert wrote: No. Soul does not have anything like Psycho4 in its wingtips. Very different kites. Soul adjustments are just fine tuning, fortunately.
Armin Harich wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:14 am
The SOUL has like all our foilkites a Tripple Depower. The Airfoil change the AOA like LEI Kites. Its chamberline and bend the airfoil while powering up. It also increase the projected Area, while powering up.
PMA effect how much change in projected area there is. Shortening the bottom skin PMA make the Soul wingtips behave more like Psycho4. Speed4DLX had a similar effect that could be enhanced or reduced with the PMA.
In Soul this thing is much weaker than it was in P4, if it is there at all. Soul has much flatter canopy curve than P4 has, especially in wingtip area.

I don't know however how much PMA can affect on this, I guess not much. So far I've not seen % value changes of Soul for PA, and it is a bit questionable value anyway. To measure changing in-flight areas is quite challenging task, or it is some kind of estimate I don't know.

Many kites increase PA slightly when powered up.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby foilholio » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:25 pm

kitexpert wrote: No. Soul does not have anything like Psycho4 in its wingtips. Very different kites. Soul adjustments are just fine tuning, fortunately.
They are for fine tunning but they can be used to create an effect similar, but obviously far from the same as the Pyscho4.
kitexpert wrote: When depowered Psycho4 wingtips "fly on their own", not much supported by bridle.
I may have agreed with that a few years ago, but the bridles do play a part. Of particular note is the progressive positioning forward on the cord of A as it moves out on the tip.
kitexpert wrote: So it is questionable if bridle adjustments affect much (more like they can disturb the effect) or do the wingtips affect much on how kite drifts, I doubt it.
Well I am an expert on this kite and I have played with the bridles and the sewn shape, but unfortunate not bridle positions. The bridles most definitely do have a part to play and altering them alone will change the effect, as will altering alone the sewn shape change the effect and too I would think altering the bridle positions alone would change the effect. It carries like with everything to a foil kite that all it's parts can play a part. It is neither solely the bridles or the canopy but the synergy of both. And from that thinking to achieve this effect you would I think have to look at all parts involved. Maybe one needs to be used more than another but they can all be used.
kitexpert wrote: Anyway this question is quite meaningless because P4 is so old and wingtips of it were considered weirdly behaving by many and FS don't produce anything like it anymore.
Yes the Psycho4 is old, but it is still mostly at the pinnacle of kite design. Which means there is not kites more advanced than some things it has or does. If it's design has unnecessary things removed, and then maybe a few other things done, it is and would be a much better kite. It is maybe not a kite for everyone and everything, but as a kite sold for freestyle it was ok but is excellent in the surf. The tips would mainly behave weird when out of tune, that behavior can though be beneficial for drift and surf, so it is possible to choose if it is desired. The main negative to the Psycho4 is from the way it increases it's PA. It does so when also increasing it's AoA. This has the rather large negative that the kite misses some fine points of high performance achieved at low AoA and high PA. Overall though it does achieve an extreme amount of range and when paired with something like a hydrofoil then any lack of the fine range of performance is not to be noticed unless maybe you were racing but then the kites for that are so radically different than even the AR of the Psycho4 it is not a comparison to be made.

Flysurfer can actually still make the Psycho4. It is however so easy to update some basic things about it, that would also make production easier. I am not sure if at all much demand even like that would exist it would likely need a little more work, I think mainly to make it lighter and I would prefer faster, though it is already quite a fast kite. Technologies like LE stiffeners could help but I don't like the weight.

Now seeing something like the peak 4 coming at the problem from another angle is lessening the need for something like a Psycho4. But then the Peak4 doesn't jump well and the Psycho4 does... I have to laugh for so many years it's said you couldn't have a wave kite go upwind well or jump well and since 2008 it has already existed LoL.
kitexpert wrote: OK. There is for sure a limit in which kite AoA (and line rows with it) can reach.
Thinking of it solely as a limit to AoA is too primitive. While technically it is mostly true but it is more a limit to a section of AoA between A and B that is limited. While I am sure B being pulled down then some or all of the kite will come some way with it, it is more technically correct to say it is altering the camber and the AoA and maybe if alone more correct to say the camber, though I would surrender that point. Physically you are looking at a limit on B as that is the only bridle other than A that has tension. From a maintenance point of view it is better to look at it like that, that B has a limit.

kitexpert wrote: If mixer pulley lines are long enough - not restricting kite - it is not very relevant to know what it is.
It is not just whether the pulley lines are long enough but if B main and the B bridles are long enough too. Which sadly is never true for any of them, at least on Flysurfers or Panshes. It is largely not important exactly how long the pulley lines are for the full depower limit to be reach but just a sole number which is the amount B extends at it's limit past A, or the AB limit.
kitexpert wrote: I don't get how to measure it in flight and why it should be done.
I didn't say anything about that? just that it may be different, I think I have observed it so. It would be easy enough to mount a camera and observe and then estimate measurements from that. The applicability is mainly to understanding design and principles better, it is not applicable to tuning.
kitexpert wrote: bigger kites need more length for their mixer, but 100cm SPL has proved itself to be long enough.
Yes but again a 100cm SPL does not stay 100cm. I would say 100cm is maybe on the border of too little for bigger kites, I know it works but I feel just a little more AoA for relaunch etc could be useful.
kitexpert wrote:Depowering means you make kite fly at lower AoA
It also lowers the camber.
kitexpert wrote: When depowering has happened to its most effective manner kite flies on its A line row only.
Not really, maybe you mean when it is fully depowered? Most depower occurs with some tension still in B and then sometimes with some also still in C and then a tiny bit with tension also in Z. Maybe it is just semantics on whether you consider a kite powering or depowering though.
kitexpert wrote: Then mixer (and possible tunings) are ineffective because all pulley lines and brakes are loose.
Yes when a line is slack it is not of importance but at some stage it should have tension again, it is when and how much it tensions that still remains important.
kitexpert wrote: How much kite can depower or tolerate low AoA's does not have much or anything to do with the mixer, it is mostly a kite build-in property.
Yes if the mixer is not limiting it. On foils I have seen, the limit for the mixer only releases full tension on B at the window edge and only if the bridle and mixer pulley lines haven't shrunk which they always have.

I think it would be cool to have kites with multiple A positions but then also the profile can have some of this effect and Flysurfer has the PMAs for that, which is really cool for Flysurfer and shows how much in advance of others with Foil kite design they are. Something for an updated Pyscho4 for sure.
kitexpert wrote: If kite can't tolerate flying on A line row only some additional support from B line row is needed, how much it have to be tested by flying and adjusting. In this situation some (at least theoretical) depowerability is lost.
I will add as well how and when the mixer pulls in camber effects how a kite tolerates depower. With more camber pulled at the mixer if you shock with sudden full power then depower, the resulting momentum built up will send the canopy into a negative AoA and cause a luff. You can avoid it by reducing the depower, or camber (or not moving the bar so quick). Then of interest, the way FS adjusts the mixer always achieves the opposite, which I think is bad. You lengthen B and C, so achieving more camber and more depower so then the kite is more likely to luff. Then when you shorten B and C you get less camber and less depower but the kite can tolerate more depower, but then maybe it is desired to reduce depower and make a kite "even" more stable, but I disagree with that philosophy completely. The adjustments should be independent for depower and camber. One reason maybe to just not adjust B, and another for simplicity.

kitexpert wrote: BTW FS's "Triple depower" is a bit misleading, camber change is not for depower but for power, kite increases camber when powered. When kite is depowered camber is the "original" shape of the airfoil.
The mixer can actually go thru 2 states, decrease camber powering and then increasing it. The decreasing part is mainly focused on when B is solely tensioned. This is important as it gives the lest increase of power while also improving the stability of the kite. It is why a little bit of bar tension can dramatically improve a foil kites stability. You get a transition then to C engaging and while technically it will also reduce camber it will also dramatically increase the power from the wing, because it is positioned further back on the cord. It is basic physics that more of the wing is being forced into the wind so there is more pull or power. So for that reason which is more a usability one it is better to engage B for longer. When you engage Z then camber increases and also you want C to fill in the gap. You should already be at high AoA so increasing camber is not an issue here for stability, but if you want best L/D you can't have engaged B too much or Z, and C needs to be just right though it seems quite tolerant. Not so easy but opens so much customability for users that they are more likely to end up in the weeds playing with things than find much useful. The solution is to stick to what the designer has with his grand experience found is best though most likely only for him or his team rider/s. Oh and if you start moving bridle positions then you need to think as things being quite different and more like the position they are close too. I must admit I haven't grasped wing warping yet, the Aurora 3 has C running an A position at the tip. My mind has it how it works but then I couldn't get it to work when I modified my A15 to be 3 rows only.
kitexpert wrote: if B mains is very short adjustability is difficult to make or it becomes impossible.
You can do away with B adjustment if you have C and Z adjustable and some way to extend or change the travel of the pulleys like a stopper knot.
jakemoore wrote: I find it most useful to consider tuning kites from the opposite point of view. That is to say the airfoil and bridle are best tuned for max performance in the powered state. Bar and lines are tuned with the bar at max power. The mixer test even before it was named is performed at max power bar lines equal. The long mixer test again before it was named performed as if the kite is max power bar at the chicken loop and 4 lines equal.
It is a good reference point to have some of the mixer at 0, in this case A and Z, then all of your settings become that of B and C in relation to A and Z. Alternatively and in many ways simpler you could have the reference point as A,B and C at 0 and your settings are that of Z in relation to them at 0.

You can assume that the mixer at even and the lines even is max power, but that is not correct and actually causes a misunderstanding about what causes max power for a kite. It is a combination of higher air speed and AoA. A kite will usually produce it's most power at close to it's top speed and the AoA will vary but is usually much less than close to stall. Of note is static flight in different wind speeds, what is the highest power with highest AoA in one wind speed will stall the kite in a lower windspeed. There is no static point for kites at which they make the most power for all wind speeds. It is why you largely have a trimmer, so that you can dynamically adjust to have close to what feels like a static point of trim, when none actually exists. The all lines even is the correct point is just an illusion. You only have what is your comfortable sheet point and range.
jakemoore wrote: On triple depower kites as in FS and CA Smart and Wave profile momentum folds the tips reducing projected area.
Momentum is an interesting way of looking at things, but here doesn't cover everything. To change PA you can force things with the bridles and or the sewn shape of the kite. And in each of them there is multiple ways. With the bridles you have the lengths, so basically the arc shape and then also you have the placement on the bridles, like the cord position etc. With the kites sewn shape you have the camber, but you can also change AoA cell to cell. It is like twisting the shape. The Pyscho4 quite literally uses all of them. You though don't need to uses all of them! You can produce the effect with the use any single one of them. As to which is better to use or what combination? It is all a very complicated design path. Flysurfer gave up on the amount of PA change achieved on the Pyscho4 after the Psycho4 and each proceeding kite seemed to have less and less. I think achieving a kite with this that has all desirable quality's is difficult. The solution would have been to actually take the Pyscho4 and make small iterative changes. It is the only way to improve something that is already quite good. The wrong thing is to make a already difficult design harder and drop a whole bridle row.... like they did with the successor to the Psycho4, and then also stuff the marketing up by calling it a Speed... :o

It is great FS found their footing with race kites and the soul and peaks, but it is sad that a kite that with only minimal design improvement can be so much better, is still relevant and yet not available like that. I think the market for Mid AR is quite legit. Given concepts like on demand production then spending a couple days changing things a bit and only making whats sold can't cost that much.
jakemoore wrote: Yes when the wing is depowered the kite takes the form of its sewn shape and as adjusted by PMA. But the tuning and bridle changes to get back to the intended design recover the original shape of the powered kite.
The bridle is always influencing the shape even when depowered, it is a balance between the sewn shape and the bridle.
kitexpert wrote: In Soul this thing is much weaker than it was in P4, if it is there at all. Soul has much flatter canopy curve than P4 has, especially in wingtip area.
It would be interesting a kite that had already a high PA but went even higher. Kites like the warrior had an incredible amount of power for their size. It was like nearly completely flat!
kitexpert wrote: I don't know however how much PMA can affect on this, I guess not much.
Small camber changes to the sewn shape have a dramatic effect to this. So it is likely the PMAs can do quite a bit.
kitexpert wrote: To measure changing in-flight areas is quite challenging task, or it is some kind of estimate I don't know.
It is relatively easy using images and the right software.
kitexpert wrote:Many kites increase PA slightly when powered up.


Many LEIs decrease PA powered up as well...

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jakemoore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:22 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:33 pm
I don't know however how much PMA can affect on this, I guess not much.
My experience based on Speed 4 DLX is the effect can be quite pronounced ranging from dull slow turning and overstable all the way to unusable due to collapsing wingtips over the span of the few knots. The trick is finding the right knot for dynamic and fun turning without too much collapse.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby kitexpert » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:47 pm

It is appropriate observation of P4 A line row location in wingtips, it for sure has its effect for changing PA. The closer to LE you move A line row the more depowered that part of the wing is able to be, and this is what P4 wingtips do a lot when depowered, they just float there and even turn inwards. BC line rows are more or less slack, so tweaking with them can't have a positive effect but if they are active wingtip behavior becomes more normal like in kites we now have.

If P4's depowered wingtips lower L/D (which is quite probable) kite falls deeper in the WW. This may very well lead to better stability and drift. However this behavior is not without drawbacks, it makes kite at least feel and look a bit strange. Bar feedback also suffers. Nowadays kites like Hyperlink, Nova, Soul are targeted for previous LEI users, they have more bar pressure and more precise feel, they feel quite solid all the time.

It is true Psycho4 has quite respectable boosting performance, but when Speeds came they had it too or more, and also much more hangtime. After Speeds there just wasn't much room for Psychos, freestyle foil kite is much too niche product (even though it has wider use than that). Now FS has a high performance mid AR kite Soul, so there is no way Psycho is coming back. However there is room further below Soul but I doubt if FS would continue Pulse-Unity type low-mid AR kite serie, there is already Peak which fills that segment, even on the water.

If (foil) kite is very flat turning suffers, also span wise tension of the kite is lost. So kite becomes less rigid and behaves worse.

Depowering does not necessarily mean kite lowers its camber. Camber can very well be constant, only AoA change is enough for depower. If brake line row is loose it is possible that camber decreases when powering up, it is not reasonable though.

There is some contradiction if increased camber is said to lead to more depower. It is true kite will fly further in WW, but this makes it also more prone to collapse. If kite constantly collapses it is a bit difficult to enjoy increased depower. In practice lower camber setting may very well give more depower, but again there is a compromise to be found.

When bar is fully sheeted in and mixer is in neutral position kite bridle defines what AoA is. Usually it is close to back stall, but user should tune it for his personal preference.

In general I advice not to make depower kite mechanics more complex than it is. Mixer is just a tool to change AoA of soft foil kite. Adjustments in mixer are mainly just to restore original settings and to allow some fine tuning if user has need for it. For great majority of users original carefully designed and meticulously tested settings are the best. If kiter has very different opinion how his kite should behave he should have bought more suitable kite for his use.
Last edited by kitexpert on Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby kitexpert » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:55 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:22 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:33 pm
I don't know however how much PMA can affect on this, I guess not much.
My experience based on Speed 4 DLX is the effect can be quite pronounced ranging from dull slow turning and overstable all the way to unusable due to collapsing wingtips over the span of the few knots. The trick is finding the right knot for dynamic and fun turning without too much collapse.
Ok, that is interesting. For sure if there is a lot of range in PMA it will affect. I must confess I didn't even know Speed4 dlx had PMA's until quite recently, and I've used that kite for years. However I've thought PMA is quite crude way to alter kite shape but if it is usable, fair enough.

Can you tell which ribs have it in Speed4 dlx, I'm too lazy to find out myself :)

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jakemoore » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:18 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:55 pm
Can you tell which ribs have it in Speed4 dlx, I'm too lazy to find out myself :)
I sold mine several months ago and its been some time since I looked at it. But IIRC 4 ribs near each wingtip have them top and bottom. I believe they are spaced every 2 or 3 cells. It is probably the same cells that have B bridles.

They are easy to find by feeling the cloth of the rib near the seam on the top and bottom skin. They are harder to pull out through the holes in the rib and dirt-outs as maybe only two fingers can reach through the vents on each rib.

My 8 had a problem with tip collapse. In the end I shortened 1 knot on two PMA at each tip. Any more and the kite lost its magic. And for kicks I also tried to shorten alternately top and bottom skin on my 10. In the end I left it stock but it was a good experiment to develop understanding.

I wonder if PMA are older than the Speed4 dlx? There was some hint to their existence with Speed4 dlx but no documentation until Soul. I could not find any on Speed 4 lotus and have no experience with the Sonics.

I have tuned a kite that pulled strongly to one side with a top skin tuck to add reflex to one wingtip and had good results even if the cosmetic result was poor. No doubt if I were to do it again I would add adjustable PMA.

I really liked those Speed4 DLX kites but alas I don't want to be a gear hoarder and my loft is still critically full.
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