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Flysurfer Soul

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foilholio
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby foilholio » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:31 pm

kitexpert wrote: It is appropriate observation of P4 A line row location in wingtips, it for sure has its effect for changing PA. The closer to LE you move A line row the more depowered that part of the wing is able to be, and this is what P4 wingtips do a lot when depowered, they just float there and even turn inwards. BC line rows are more or less slack, so tweaking with them can't have a positive effect but if they are active wingtip behavior becomes more normal like in kites we now have.
Again this is a combination of things to produce the effect, though one can do it. For example the arc shape or lengths of the A bridle are a factor. On the Aurora1 I have made this more C shaped than the other bridles, and that alone can produce the effect but it is not the same as the Psycho4, it is a bit different. The Psycho4 has some component of the tips that has them fly on their own like you said, so compared to on the modified Aurora where it is more forced, i.e. the bridles can be seen pulling things in. There is a spanwise component to things though, and often missed when looking at wings not in 3d but 2d. In 3d the wing is inducing air flow across the span ultimately into vortexes, that can be viewed as either resulting from the lift or actually being the lift. It is the reason you have differing effects on and from the wing across the span. Now to get to my point, I did have one :-), on the Psycho 4 if shortening the center of A or lengthen the tips then you get a more flat kite depowered. It could be viewed that this changes the spanning airflow or vortex causing the tips to be more open or shut.
kitexpert wrote: If P4's depowered wingtips lower L/D (which is quite probable) kite falls deeper in the WW. This may very well lead to better stability and drift.
This is what happens.
kitexpert wrote: However this behavior is not without drawbacks, it makes kite at least feel and look a bit strange.
It can look strange, but depending how it is tuned affects how much it does it and also it too can be controlled with trim/bar. The L/D actually improves for a short while when you sheet in and the tips open some. The kite is very sensitive to both tune and trim, which overall can make it a difficult kite to own and use. In short it is not an easy kite, but a quite capable kite. Now to it looking strange, often even if it is tuned to look more weird it will be much more less strange in use, though I am not saying it is perfect.
kitexpert wrote:Bar feedback also suffers
I am not sure about that, the Psycho4 is quite direct and responsive for a foil kite.
kitexpert wrote: Nowadays kites like Hyperlink, Nova, Soul are targeted for previous LEI users, they have more bar pressure and more precise feel, they feel quite solid all the time.
The Pyscho4 can be tuned for more bar pressure, but I think the tune is much better in flight when it has less. It does not behave well with higher camber. Personally I like lighter bar, because I like well functioning limbs for other things and in kiting. Tendonitis is such a lovely affliction, that many tube kiters get. It is sure great too to injure your customers so that you and the industry eventually has less! Selection pressure should eventually reduce bar pressures and it has mostly.
kitexpert wrote: It is true Psycho4 has quite respectable boosting performance, but when Speeds came they had it too or more, and also much more hangtime. After Speeds there just wasn't much room for Psychos, freestyle foil kite is much too niche product (even though it has wider use than that). Now FS has a high performance mid AR kite Soul, so there is no way Psycho is coming back. However there is room further below Soul but I doubt if FS would continue Pulse-Unity type low-mid AR kite serie, there is already Peak which fills that segment, even on the water.
The soul is mid to high AR, so I think a kite below it is still needed. The problem with Flysurfer's lower AR solutions is they all use slow airfoils because they are mainly targeted at beginners. Slow or thick airfoils are quite disappointing for more advanced kiters. The Psycho4 is a bit faster airfoil but I think would be better even faster. With LEIs I absolutely love, "razor" thin tubes and profiles...there too low AR can have fat fucking tubes... Sorry if I insult your ego or design sensibilities kitexpert but I have a lot of experience riding, though maybe and obviously not designing but I can observe what works for me and others.
kitexpert wrote: If (foil) kite is very flat turning suffers, also span wise tension of the kite is lost. So kite becomes less rigid and behaves worse.
Yes but altering the arc side to side and so changing mass distribution greatly increases turn, I would be surprised if the Pyscho4 is still not one of the fastest turning foil kites in existence, especially in deluxe fabric and it's AR. Turning is not everything though, my idea for flat to flatter is mainly aimed at racing or jumping etc.
kitexpert wrote: Depowering does not necessarily mean kite lowers its camber. Camber can very well be constant, only AoA change is enough for depower. If brake line row is loose it is possible that camber decreases when powering up, it is not reasonable though.
Yes, not necessarily but it can. It is entirely dependent on the ratios of the mixer and the cord positions of the bridles and then as well their lengths.

kitexpert wrote: There is some contradiction if increased camber is said to lead to more depower. It is true kite will fly further in WW, but this makes it also more prone to collapse. If kite constantly collapses it is a bit difficult to enjoy increased depower. In practice lower camber setting may very well give more depower, but again there is a compromise to be found.
Yes it is a play between what is practical and impractical. But as well this differs from person to person, I personally can surf with slack lines on race kites.. I don't choose to but can.
kitexpert wrote: In general I advice not to make depower kite mechanics more complex than it is. Mixer is just a tool to change AoA of soft foil kite.
The camber effect can be quite large. I choose to look at it from both but am more biased to think in terms of camber.
kitexpert wrote: Adjustments in mixer are mainly just to restore original settings and to allow some fine tuning if user has need for it. For great majority of users original carefully designed and meticulously tested settings are the best.
I agree.
kitexpert wrote: If kiter has very different opinion how his kite should behave he should have bought more suitable kite for his use.
Well, maybe other kites don't offer exactly what he wants, or money is an issue, or he likes to play with things. There is quite a few well proven kite technologies and then some basic engineering principles that can be applied to any kite but more so older ones, that may be missing things or have some more glaringly easy things to change. Like to me the A15 seemed quite obvious maybe the C bridle could go and it could. The engineering principle is "The best part is no part". Basically if you can remove something and it is better for it then you should. In the past more so, but I am sure still, kites can have many useless things on them, LEI are the worst offenders. I have seen large spare parts stored on the kite, like with Naish, a horrible brand. So obviously led by Robby's (though a great person) windsurf background to overbuild things. It's a failure to think fully in the new paradigm. It is interesting Greg who did work for naish went on the design kites completely differently from when he worked for them... following the simple engineering principle of removing things and seeing if it still worked. See the perceived benefit is not always the actual or there is negatives, not seen or understood. Unfortunately peoples ability to perceive is quite genetic or based in something. You can tell someone a fact or truth, show them it and they will blindly just go off in complete ignorance of it. You can even get aggression to an alternative way being better. To in someways I am guilty to this with foil kites, but I am also well aware of their deficiencies. I would like to improve those though and a better mixer is one way of a few.
jakemoore wrote: My 8 had a problem with tip collapse. In the end I shortened 1 knot on two PMA at each tip. Any more and the kite lost its magic. And for kicks I also tried to shorten alternately top and bottom skin on my 10. In the end I left it stock but it was a good experiment to develop understanding.
I wonder if the bridles would have solved it correctly. I actually feel quite certain they could. I have 11 year old Psycho4s that fly near perfect and bridles solve everything except canopy asymmetry, for which I use pleats to trim.
jakemoore wrote: I have tuned a kite that pulled strongly to one side with a top skin tuck to add reflex to one wingtip and had good results even if the cosmetic result was poor.
When the canopy is asymmetric you should ,if it is bad mainly, be able to see a different appearance side to side. If you distribute a number of small but many changes to one side then you will largely or not at all notice a difference side to side. You could actually distribute them to both sides but on one side the top skin the other the bottom. Then the changes or pleats could be even smaller and maybe even less noticeable. Though you could see the pleats on the bottom when flying and that is getting quite complicated when some times 2 or 3 thin 5mm pleats is all that is needed.
jakemoore wrote: No doubt if I were to do it again I would add adjustable PMA.
PMAs sound great as a tuning option added to new kites or old, but for defects sewing pleats might be best.

It is really interesting the naming with momentum, it does help understand the effect but they are technically just profile adjusters so PA, but flysurfer invented them so PMA it is. I remember the first time I heard momentum and was WTF? for me it is confusing but I understand the profile, mentioned solely as the profile. Adding a word just confuses me to think it is something else, especially I think Flysurfer might have mentioned them as just Momentum Adjusters...

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jakemoore
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jakemoore » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:36 am

foilholio wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:31 pm
I wonder if the bridles would have solved it correctly.
Bridles helped a lot but the PMA added the specific change in the wingtips I was looking for. Furthermore, changing the bridle to affect the kites depowered shape adversely impacts the kites powered shape. So do you choose stable but gutless or powerful but unpredictable? The PMA contained the secret ingredient especially as they related to the kites behavior with completely slack lines and bridles.
foilholio wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:31 pm
PMAs sound great as a tuning option added to new kites or old, but for defects sewing pleats might be best.
The pleats are a good tip and worked well for me before I was aware of the PMA. But how much pleat do you need? I tried tape but it did not work well as an adjustable solution on the beach due to moisture and sand. So I pre placed sewn thread for 4 pleats. I could tie or release the pleats so that I could increase or decrease the effect resulting in straight flight while depowered. I just left the thread in the loose pleats so that I could change it in the future if needed. It worked well but was not elegant.

The effect of shortening the PMA is the same as a pleat. It speeds or slows the wingtip. In a kite that flies true changing the PMA asymmetrically causes the kite to turn to one side or the other in a predictable way and effects the kite primarily when it is depowered. The beauty is the sewing is not visible outside the kite and is more easily adjustable.

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jakemoore
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jakemoore » Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:45 am

kitexpert wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:17 pm
You practically can't make fixed bridle high camber foil kite depowerable kite by adding a mixer, it isn't stable enough.
At this exact moment I'm contemplating the closeout deals on PL Vapor 2 as an inexpensive light wind insurance policy. Maybe it would even be fun to try to depower it. Alas you are right that the time I would spend on trying to modify it would negate any value and it would still not compete with the modern offerings from Ozone Flysurfer and PL.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby foilholio » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:38 am

jakemoore wrote: Bridles helped a lot but the PMA added the specific change in the wingtips I was looking for. Furthermore, changing the bridle to affect the kites depowered shape adversely impacts the kites powered shape. So do you choose stable but gutless or powerful but unpredictable? The PMA contained the secret ingredient especially as they related to the kites behavior with completely slack lines and bridles.
I am not disagreeing at all on the effect of the PMA, I know this effect. I am just stating what I have seen bridles can do. For instance the tips can become flappy on the Psycho 4, lengthening Z alone can all or mostly fix this, tuning the bridle at the kite will fix it too.

I have seen that changing the depowered shape too affects the powered shape. This is inline that foil kites are quite flexible, with every part effecting every other part. Unlike LEIs they can't rigidly force things.

I am surprised you had completely slack bridles, I would assume you increase the depower at the mixer to achieve that? otherwise I would question if they were truely slack if you didn't, knowing flysurfers. Though I don't have experience with the Speed4deluxe. I get that when the kite is solely on A it has largely it's shape to effect it, but you would be surprised that both A and the other bridles can have an effect too! The momentum generated by the shape the other bridles can cause things to collapse when depowered. A as well depending on shape can affect the tips, this is a spanwise effect I talked about.

It is also highly probably the kite could age and change probably in shape some way that the A positions are not correct for it and then yes changing its shape with the PMAs would be right but you could have as well restrained the depower at the mixer to fix it, though with less depower. It would be a fine line though.
jakemoore wrote: The pleats are a good tip and worked well for me before I was aware of the PMA. But how much pleat do you need? I tried tape but it did not work well as an adjustable solution on the beach due to moisture and sand. So I pre placed sewn thread for 4 pleats. I could tie or release the pleats so that I could increase or decrease the effect resulting in straight flight while depowered. I just left the thread in the loose pleats so that I could change it in the future if needed. It worked well but was not elegant.
So you have to guess with pleats. They are more effective at the tip and less as you move towards the center. I start at the tip and will add 1 per cell to 1 to 3 cells depending how severe the bias is. I place them at 50% cord, but apparently anywhere will work. I usually use the ripstop as a sewing guide so 1 square, half a square or 2, depending on how much effect I want and how I want to distribute it. Again the more thin you do the pleats and the more of them the less you notice them. It is also easier to make a pleat bigger than smaller, though removing the thread can be easy but leaves holes. If I need more pleats I add them to more cells. If say I am up around 7 cells I might move to 75% cord at the tip and add from there again.

I can't emphasize enough how important symmetric front lines and A and B bridles are for checking straight flight. Front lines are nearly always not even from new, I have checked many and all have been uneven. Checking them is not a simple visual look at the bow either, an even bow can still be 1 inch or more out. You need a rope through a pulley, one line on each end of the rope, and to check them under a good amount of tension.

If you start pleating without the lines and bridles being even you will just be doing the wrong thing. I will add as well that the front lines are even more complicated than I just stated, in that to get the most even lengths, especially over time, you need to evenly prestretch them before checking and modifying. The process is so time consuming that uneven lines from new does not surprise me at all.

As to tuning kites, I went though a phase intrigued by high camber, but the highest camber is quite impractical though interesting. I am now focused on best L/D, so best upwind and float and I think quite good power when flying the kite. It is nice tuned for good L/D is also quite stable. It is far more practical to be able to ride upwind and maybe easily, than have huge power and not. I might take some interest in turn speed, mainly for the bigger kites, but I think L/D and turn are in opposition.
jakemoore wrote: At this exact moment I'm contemplating the closeout deals on PL Vapor 2 as an inexpensive light wind insurance policy. Maybe it would even be fun to try to depower it.
Get a Pansh. The Aurora 3 sounds good. The amount of work depowering a kite is a bit and then they can neither have the bridle positions or shape that it works well.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby jakemoore » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:04 am

jakemoore wrote: completely slack lines and bridles.
foilholio wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:38 am
I am surprised you had completely slack bridles
Completely slack lines and bridles as in front lines and A bridles demonstrating significant sag, kite deep in the window, riding downwind fast toward the kite.
foilholio wrote: Get a Pansh. The Aurora 3 sounds good. The amount of work depowering a kite is a bit and then they can neither have the bridle positions or shape that it works well.
Been there, done that. Nothing against Pansh, but I think Soul and some of the other light and high performance wings are more likely to expand my range.
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby foilholio » Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:31 am

jakemoore wrote: Completely slack lines and bridles as in front lines and A bridles demonstrating significant sag, kite deep in the window, riding downwind fast toward the kite.
Maybe we are not talking about the same thing but this is not full depower. Full depower is full tension in A, slack in all others so BCZ etc. or BZ for speed4. I have flown the speed4 deluxe it was very nice. Is the problem with it tip collapsing with full slack and not depower? Because I would say whether a foil kite collapses with slack is part chance and a lot the pilot.
jakemoore wrote: Been there, done that. Nothing against Pansh, but I think Soul and some of the other light and high performance wings are more likely to expand my range.
If I remember right you weren't happy with the A15? I really don't care much what kites you have you just mentioned cheap and then converting a nonwater and fixed bridle kite, which I don't think is wise and Pansh is a better option to that. If you want to spend the money on Soul etc, not my money but I also like Flysurfer and think they make the best kites.

Nice photo, but it could be in the lee of something so 12knots :-P but if it is really like 3knots what kite were you on? I see that gust up in front, looks like 12knots ;-P

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby Foil » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:05 am

its a chore sometimes to read many of the posts, and very frustrating when a acronym is used to describe something that then stops me understanding what is being explained,
its hard enough to follow the thread at times, but when these acronyms are used then it stops me dead, as i simply loose the plot.

if someone can just list these acronyms maybe on a seperate thread, then I can reference these when talk gets technical but very interesting.
I am learning a little bit each time I decide to try and understand some of the tech talk (TT)
80 pages are just far too many pages to flick back into to find the meanings.
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby foilholio » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:45 pm

Which ones? If you made a list in your post I could give you the words or meanings now.

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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby Flyfish » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:03 pm

Foil wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:05 am
its a chore sometimes to read many of the posts, and very frustrating when a acronym is used to describe something that then stops me understanding what is being explained,
its hard enough to follow the thread at times, but when these acronyms are used then it stops me dead, as i simply loose the plot.
OMG. Thank you for for saying the most obvious thing ever! It blows my mind how absurd posts can be here. I don't read anything from several common posters on this forum. And the sad thing is maybe they have intelligent ideas to add. But they get listed in my brain as "f*** that dude" and I skip right past them.

So... to you Foil I say:
As you know, foil kites have a learning curve. I know you crave information about them so you can enhance your experience with them. Skip the long winded posters. They like to think they are the shit, but they're not. You will get little gold nuggets of info from others that post. So just skip the "know it alls".

Good luck. Oftain I wonder why I waste my time here. But there are posters that will help you.
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foilholio
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Re: Flysurfer Soul

Postby foilholio » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:54 pm

Well that is nice, especially if aimed at me. I offered clarification to what ever you are having trouble understanding and you give that. I will say it has become clear to me over the years you can't teach what isn't willing to learn. Good luck finding free help anywhere, especially in a niche. Many of my posts are directed solely at who I am replying to and so are written for them. They will use some common acronyms like PA or projected area and AoA Angle of Attack and ABCZ the bridle rows on foil kites. Less common ones are FS Flysurfer and their models like P4 Psycho4 or Peak4, A15 is the model name of a kite from Pansh. L/D is the ratio of Lift to Drag or Lift Drag Coefficient or how efficient a kite is, how well it goes upwind. LEI is Leading Edge Inflatable or a tube kite. PMA is profile momentum adjuster or little lines with knots that sit inside the kite to adjust their shape. PL is Peterlynn. AR is aspect ratio or how wide and thin a kite is.

That is all I can see scanning 2 pages, so if there is more you will have to help yourself first and ask a question and not demand life be handed to you.


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