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Kitech FRS

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andylc
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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby andylc » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:40 am

I’m sure the FRS is a nice kite, but I find your comments on depower and bar feel for the Soul strange, since these are two things it is excellent for. In particular the bar feel is far more precise than the race oriented kites, so your comments on this don’t seem to make that much sense.

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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby tomtom » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:12 am

I rode just one in size 8 - and it was exactly as described. Im not Expert in foil kites nor can i adjust bridles. Kite which i was trying had about 8 hours from new on TT before me. Maybe not bedded in properly.

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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby fabdimo » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:22 am

Somebody tried kitech RS 15? They started with 9 and 12 but now they are out with the bigger kites

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:19 pm

My video-test of the 9M FRS, last Automne, with TT board and hydrofoil ; good souvenir
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:37 am

Some details on my feed-back during these 2 days tests on the video:

Pros:
- the most plug-and-play kite I know; you feel as if you already know this kite
- excellent smooth and regular loop all along the loop even when getting upward; very encouraging for waves and snowkite
- very agile : turn tight even with slack lines
- excellent depower, gust smoothness and high end
- excellent relaunch even after a long time in the water
- loop is medium powerful : you can loop to locate the kite where you want without being pulled-out (useful in waves and snowkite)
- good speed and upwind for a medium ratio kite (largely enough for non-competitors)
- fabrication quality
- large choice of personal colors

Cons :
- relative weight in marginal winds : average weight of a foil kite , which is already far better than LEI
- loop is medium powerful : better than LEI but some medium ratio give higher boost during the loop (not optimum for marginal winds)
- you need to keep one hand on the bar and tension a bit the rear lines at the zenith in very low lulls (maybe an issue in waves , limiting the drift abilities)
- symetrical design: after a trick , you could visually mix the Leading Edge with the trailing edge , which can end-up kite in the water if you decide to re-direct the kite in the wrong direction
- some setting knots on the Z (or B and C or A and B) line could allow to optimize the kite as you wish (for example more boost in the light wind, but still keep its stability in high winds)

Personal conclusion:
An excellent all-round kite, IMO one of the best choice as a first foilkite (for LEI practicers) and at a reasonnable price; you feel at home at the fist minute, and depower / driving method is relatively close to a LEI; in its current setting (standard cloth and probably limited camber), it is efficient in light wind but not the optimum for marginal winds ; the loop under slack lines is the shorter I tested , really appreciated in hydrofoil when learning transitions; agility and depower is excellent ; its relaunch and good fabrication quality will allow you to take more risks to put it in the water (light winds, tricks, waves).

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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby tomtom » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:19 am

I told ya :)

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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby kitexpert » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:37 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote: in its current setting (standard cloth and probably limited camber), it is efficient in light wind but not the optimum for marginal winds
This is a bit misleading. Naturally standard cloth is not optimal neither in light wind nor marginal winds but "limited camber" is never an explanation for efficiency - it is good for stability though.

I've done some foil kites with low camber airfoils, they are extremely stable and quite pleasant to use but they lose for efficiency. In higher winds it is no problem. I'd guess FRS has relatively high camber because of its mid AR shape and how it behaves according people who have used it.

Ultimate efficiency test for kites is to go maximal speed upwind (in light wind). Many think that pulling trimmer in or even adjusting kite to lower camber helps there but both are just chickening out because of lack of strength. I did yesterday some legs with my LEI kite against a seasoned racer with race foil kite, it was f..ing hard work with full power. Of course I couldn't go as fast as he did but it was fun to try to keep up with him (for a while :) )

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:44 pm

By efficiency I mean ability/facility to ride, not vmg or upwind angle or race matters (*) ; do not want to pollute this thread with camber again, I said just one word to present my humble suggestion; now I need to detail since I think you misunderstood my thoughts ...

- camber goes in favor of power (line pure traction) which is useful in marginal wind to get out of water; upwind ability has no sense if you have not enough pull to first foil-up (while you can have good fun in waves or transitions even without high upwind angle) ; in my video , once I struggled to foil-up, while it was quite easy to keep upwind after foiling-up and have good time. Less camber would have led to swim back to shore.

- low (or "limited" whatever the word) camber is more stable, so we agree apparently, I do not understand why you develop this point here again.

Camber value is not a judgment ; it is a design choice with pro and cons as usual ; looking at the FRS design and trying to understand the reason of its lower loop power vs Pulsion for example, the main cause I expect is camber being flatter (pure personal analysis , having no access to the core design), hence my suggestion to add some setting knots to extend kite use on next generations (I know you do not like that, sorry but I experimented its useful impact and Flysurfer even published dedicated tutorials on this).

(*) for this seek you need a pure race kite as soon as wind is enough to foil-up , so choice is easy but this is not my purpose.

kitexpert
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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby kitexpert » Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:17 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:44 pm
By efficiency I mean ability/facility to ride, not vmg or upwind angle or race matters (*) ; do not want to pollute this thread with camber again, I said just one word to present my humble suggestion; now I need to detail since I think you misunderstood my thoughts ...
Well, I understand your thoughts by how you write them down.
Regis-de-giens wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:44 pm
- camber goes in favor of power (line pure traction) which is useful in marginal wind to get out of water; upwind ability has no sense if you have not enough pull to first foil-up (while you can have good fun in waves or transitions even without high upwind angle)
More camber indeed gives more lift or pull and it gives it in both "first foil-up" and upwind. But if kite has more drag than usual upwind performance can suffer even if it has good lift. It is two different things to get going from practically zero speed than to push upwind with high apparent wind speed. Low weight (and inertia) of Pulsion helps in the start, it has better acceleration and therefore it reaches higher speed in the loop giving more power. It may also have more camber and higher lowest AoA but if it is so it sacrifices stability or depower or both.
Regis-de-giens wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:44 pm
- low (or "limited" whatever the word) camber is more stable, so we agree apparently, I do not understand why you develop this point here again.
You agree what I wrote? I don't agree that "limited camber" is explanation for efficiency in light winds. I just wanted to correct this because quite many have strange or even false opinions on how camber, mixer adjustment, trimmer position/bar position affect on kite performance. Some opinions are exactly opposite from reality.
Regis-de-giens wrote: Camber value is not a judgment ; it is a design choice with pro and cons as usual ; looking at the FRS design and trying to understand the reason of its lower loop power vs Pulsion for example, the main cause I expect is camber being flatter (pure personal analysis , having no access to the core design), hence my suggestion to add some setting knots to extend kite use on next generations (I know you do not like that, sorry but I experimented its useful impact and Flysurfer even published dedicated tutorials on this).
I watched your video with FRS and I must say it didn't behave well. Collapse was severe and in my opinion unacceptable for a modern foil kite. This suggests camber of the kite is not low and stability of it isn't very good. Because I know you are skilled and experienced kiter I assume you did what was possible to avoid it. After that incident reading quite positive feedback of yours was a bit puzzling - or is it good enough with FRS to survive back to the shore? OK, it did relaunch finally and was able to stay relaunchable for quite a long time.

But after that kind of video I'm even more happier with Ultras :)

Regis-de-giens
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Re: Kitech FRS

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:11 pm

You are complaining about the potential bad impact of a bit more camber by strange and long demonstration, and then you conclude you are happy with the Ultra ? Sorry it is not coherent at all: because even with an exaggerated increased camber, FRS would be more "efficient" than Ultra , both on minimum wind foil-up but also upwind and VMG ; only agility plug-and-play and could be in favor of the Ultra ... So, I need to understand : could you please clarify which hydrofoil are you using to get such a strange conclusion ?

Back to FRS comment please; wind was low and turbulent ; you were not there to feel this level of steadiness ; FRS like most foil kite need to keep a bit of pressure in rear lines in light turbulences ; it does not make a bad kite, some are worse (most higher L/D ratio would have collapse); some are better on this point. I would compare it to HL on this point. It was maybe a bad habit from my side, just coming from a ride with the Pulsion which is more stable when flying on front lines only.

I maintain it is a good kite.
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