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Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:18 pm
by kitexpert
foilholio wrote: When the mixer fully extends to depower, B hits a limit. This limit affects the depower of the kite. The mixer and kite bridles will shrink to reduce the B limit. This has a large effect on the kites performance.
No. But now I see what is the problem.

When fully depowered and when kite has a mixer of sufficient length pulleys travel on their lines as far as they go. Limiting factor is not pulley line lengths but kite itself, kite takes as low AoA as its design orders or allow; as far as backlines are not restricting this movement. Depending its design kite flies now on A line row only or if it is too much for the stability of it some tension has been left on B lines too. Many kites suffer frontal collapses at this stage, even more so if it is gusty or kiter is not careful.

B line row usually moves only 1:4 (or less) of the bar movement, so in practice there is no risk its pulley line would be too short resulting "B hits a limit". FS uses pulley lines of about 1m, which allows huge movement plenty enough for biggest kites and longest sheeting ranges.

If kite has stability issues it can be worth a try to make a limit for B, to restrict B. Then kite has fixed AB for some lowest degrees of AoA. Some depower is lost, but if kite is too unstable at low AoA's this loss is theoretical. Years ago I tried this method but after all it is a kind of hack fix for not so successful design.

It is good to remember mixer is in the neutral position when flying lines are equal, which means bar is fully sheeted in. From the mixer point of view this could be something else as well - actually if it was pulley lines could be made shorter but this "saving" wouldn't be so essential.
foilholio wrote:Kite will fly slower, depower less and stall easier.
This is because of the kite is distorted to lower camber. In other words when bar is sheeted out there is too much tension on B and even on C. When powered up this situation is not getting much better (or not at all). It becomes worse if Z is loose making it engage later.

Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:20 pm
by foilholio
See this is the problem with falsehoods around foil kites. You have a dude claiming to be an expert, claiming to be some wonderful kite designer, who can't even grasp and especially observe the concept of B having a limit. This is simply seen as tension remaining in B on kites. You will see it in some kites maybe not all, flysurfers definitely and more with more shrink.

I am not a kite designer, nor would I even call myself an expert on them, but I know what I know. Experts claiming the wrong thing does not surprise me though. The world was flat right once? or at least so claimed by most. If I look at the Duotone designers various articles, or even certain aspects about tube kite design, I see that wrong ideas are actually quite common in that group, tube designers.

Kitexpert do you ever feel guilty about burdening people with your insufficiencies? What is actually quite simple that B has a limit, you have muddied the waters and most likely confused a lot. Sadly people may be left with kites that for some strange reason just don't fly quite right... I know I was for many years till I worked this out. Looking back it was stupidly obvious, maybe embarrassingly so to admit. Though you have no problem! Anyway hope people ignore what you write or some how work out what is correct.

Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:46 am
by kitexpert
Perhaps there is some linguistic thing in this topic but to say "B hits a limit" is not very well defined expression. I've never heard of it elsewhere and it seems no one else than foilholio is using it or understands what does it mean (or what foilholio means with it).

If back lines are loose enough only "limit" for B is like I explained - if kite is stable enough to achieve that situation. This is the real B limit, and it is an attribute of kite, not the mixer.
foilholio wrote: you have muddied the waters and most likely confused a lot.
:o :) I've always aimed to clarity and to keep different elements and functions of kite separate. You foilholio mess quite bad, incl. AoA change, camber adjustment, AoA variable camber and their roles and significance. However it is true these things happen simultaneously and are functionally overlapping so some confusion is understandable for amateurs.

You foilholio make kite tuning to look much more difficult than it is, and worse than that you give incorrect advice. I'm not saying all of it is wrong, but some is (like loosening Z is equal to tightening B-C).

I suggest foil kite owners to understand their kites, it really is not that difficult. Under this topic direnc has done well

Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:04 pm
by foilholio
I should know better than to engage you by now.

Lets keep it simple.

You are an idiot.

Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:02 pm
by kitexpert
foilholio wrote: For example if you B+5cm it is the same as Z -20cm, and C-10cm. -20cm is a very large change to Z and will test the stability of most kites, particularly high AR kites which already are very unstable.
I'm not saying you foilholio are an idiot, you just don't understand foil kites and mixers. If you would, you weren't writing silly phrases like that?

Foilholio apparently thinks kite and mixer is some kind of simple mechanical system in which it is same where changes are made :roll: No it is not :nono:
foilholio wrote:This is not rocket science, play with your Z length.
Yeah, just play with Z, loosen it no matter it is already slacking. :D

Re: Sonic FR 11 Long Mixer Test

Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:53 pm
by foilholio
Well you are proving my point that you are an idiot. You say I don't understand mixers or foil kites, well you need to have a hard think about what you just wrote or try find someone to explain it to you, because I will not.