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Flysurfer Peak 4

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Trent hink
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Trent hink » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:26 am

I got to do more traveling I guess. Everywhere I've been to, the available power from the wind is proportional to the velocity squared.

And I remember when people used to state their weight in "stone" on this forum. That really used to trip me up!

tomtom
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:03 pm

grigorib wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:49 pm
tomtom wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:34 pm
I think everybody can take what they want from reading. Too big Peak is not good for drift. But correct sizes kites are just perfect. Im just back from flagbeach Fuerteventura and as always i was agitating for peaks :). I lend my kite to people with interesting setups. There was guy with i think 7m wave LEI - i give him my 4m Peak. And now im quoting his word - This kite is always where i want him to be - and my kite is always where i not want him to be. This is most precise Peak definition - and it deeply resonate with me.
So my almost lowest LW setup is 9m Rally on 30m lines (and 1000 sq.cm wing). I can go 11m Rally and/or longer lines but then it's not as much of advantage. Mass/inertia of the kite and long lines help me to power myself out of water onto the board. Also mass of the kite prevents it from flying static at some point. If wind picks up to 10 knots it's where I'd take 7m Rally on 30m lines out.
My lowend goes to the point when I certainly can't turn the kite through zenith anymore but only with a downloop in a transition.

Which Peak size would you suggest to try to ride to take my lightwind further than that? Basically trying to cover <8knots scenario
I swear to myself not to open this again - PEAK IS NOT LIGHTWIND KITE - Your Rally is quite possible better LW kite than any Peak. Precisely because it have intertia - 3kg thingy on 30m lines zipping 100km/h is quite a lot of energy spike which can be used to pull your ass out of water. Only condition is fly it reasonable well so it will stay fly. Same is double skinn - traped air inside very possible weight more than you LEI. Add much better L/D than Peak. Peak have no powerstroke to speak about. What are we even talking about - this is like debate with flatearthers. Every parameters and feature of this kite SCREAM is not LW kite except hang on zenith - but people still WANT believe it is good LW kite. It is OK LW kite but there are much better.

Anybody claim foiling on 8m Peak at 6knts is pure and purest BS - probably from not realy know what 6 knts is.

Back to Peak. This exact LACK of Momentum is what make Peaks EXCELLENT wave kites in 12knts+

Whatever you do on wave - your normal kite have HEAVY momentum which make it fly in direction where it was flyed before. This means kite will end up in bad position and it either fall or you need to redirect it which mean powerspike you need to deal with.

Peak have
A./ no own momentum - We are talking about less than 1/3 of weight /power to power/ 3kg 9m LEI vs 800g 5m Peak
B./ As soon as you loose line tension kite L/D goes down so kite is aerodynamically more prone not to continue flying forward but more so drift with wind. /and wind accelerate it more cause it has very low momentum and bedsheet shape not airfoil one/

These factor works together in synergy - total outcome is that this kite is where you want it and it is there reactive. This is where Peaks shine - they are mid to strong wind dream kites.
Last edited by tomtom on Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tomtom
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:11 pm

foilholio wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2020 3:47 pm
tomtom wrote: And without any doubt - best waveriding hydrofoil kite is kitewing :)
What wind are you preferring a kitewing for?
No one - just from seeing one in person - Gunnar riding. I think wing start to be better alternative to kite in about 14 knots. Proper waveriding only. Not for other styles.

I ride wingwing briefly on surfskate on land and was surprised how easy it is - i know everything strait away - riding - gibing everything.
Its most intuitive wind harnessing gear i ever experienced.

Wing dont limit you to smaller waves in light wind and on shore - you can go faster than wind which is not possible on any kite. In bigger waves you tend to outrun kite or you need to have special combination of conditions /side shore and enough wind speed to not outrun./

FONE wing is possible to let luff on leash behind you...

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby slowboat » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:39 pm

tomtom (my dear virtual friend), please give up on the LW fight. I agree with you but you will never convince the flatearthers. My theory is that P4 is much cheaper than other large foil kites so people want to believe. Or, they mistakenly extrapolate the performance of smaller Peaks to larger sizes. Enough said.

I want to discuss proper wave foiling and the limits of using a kite, even ones as good as a small P4. On larger wave days, I have had my 3 meter P4 completely slack line and fall out of the sky a couple of times. Interested to learn how others avoid this. My conditions are usually side-on

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby drsurf » Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:55 pm

tomtom you must have a completely different experience of light wind where you are. PEAK4 IS A LIGHT WIND KITE where I am.

In my area with three local kitefoilers on Peak4 5m kites, the Peak4 is considered a light wind kite. When the wind gets stronger 3m Peak4 kites or small 5m or 4m LEI kites come out. I'm only 65kg and probably have a one knot advantage over my compatriots who are around 85kg. Two of us are on surf foils and one on Zeeko Spitfire. We have 4 sources of wind speed measurement, a meteorological office one on a 100m high cliff about 9km across the bay from our beach, another meteorological office one on a peninsula approx 9km away downwind, another web based wind meter on a house behind the kite beach owned by a local kitesurfer and hand held devices owned by various kitesurfers on the beach. We draw our wind speed indications from a combination of all these devices.

Our wind is a seabreeze caused largely by higher land temperature than sea temperature so it is generally very even in its strength in the summer. When I say 6 knots foiling on a Peak4 8m its 6 knot lulls, which are easy to foil through when you're moving and have apparent wind. When the lulls are 6 knots then the gusts can be 10-11 knots and the average in between. It's much easier to maintain apparent wind with a Peak4 when it's light and you're doing a lot of turning on small waves, but hard on an LEI when the lines lose any tension and your kite is turning upward. Sometimes I do pump the board to keep foiling until the next wave as the tension on my lines is so minimal that an LEI would be hard to keep in the air in these conditions.

I suppose the way one rides can also be a definition of light wind as well. Personally I ride the smallest Peak4 kite possible. I can be out on the Peak4 3m when TT riders are on 17 lightwind LEI kites. If I can get myself out of the water, thats all I need to foil and I can now get myself out of the water with a Peak4 in very minimal winds using a high flying figure eight pattern which lifts and pulls rather than looping which doesn't necessarily provide a continuous lift to get on the board - there is more powerstroke than many have stated with the right technique.

Due to the nature of our Bay there is a long fetch with the seabreeze consistent all the way creating a decent wind chop wave with some 1m peaks when the waves hit sandbars just offshore in combination with any swell. I only need enough wind to get out the back on the foil as do the other surf foilers, pointing really high isn't an issue as a foil points way higher than a TT or surfboard anyway. On the way in, it's a matter of lining up various wave peaks and you only need enough wind to keep the kite in the air, my aim is as much as possible to ride the foil using the waves and minimise being pulled along by the power of the kite. Pumping to keep foiling is fine and a fun technique to perform. The Peak4 makes this possible in light winds like no other kite as you can keep it in the air so easily. So I'm just using barely enough kite to do what I want and no more. It's a minimalist approach which may not be what many others are doing or wanting to do. High speed isn't required nor is being able to point high as I can with my Soul.

So to summarise I and some others are using the Peak4 as the most suitable lightwind kite for our needs. I only need the bare minimum of power and most of that is just to get out of the water. When I'm foiling off the wind the pull on my kite is so minimal at times I can hold the tension in my front lines with just thumb and forefinger. When you're up and foiling the Peak4 has good apparent wind regardless of the claimed L/D deficit. As I sell kites of a range of brands and could have any light wind kite I desire, (and I've tried a few), the Peak4 is my go to light wind kite and that applies to a number of other Peak4 users I know.

I think a lot of the light wind discussion is from kitesurfers who are foiling in specifically in really light and variable winds where 6 knots might be the average wind strength and 15+m twin skin foils are required to get any decent time on the water. They may also be on lakes where the wind dies completely at times and a relaunchable foil kite is a much better proposition than a Peak4. Below 6-8 knots I have much better things to do.

BTW. Don't necessarily believe everything you read on this thread. There are differences in skill and size, hydrofoils, locations and winds. If you're following this thread you should know by now that:
1. There are a lot of Peak4 kites out there in the world and the feedback has been overwhelmingly positive.
2. They are one of the most inexpensive kites you can buy.
What are you waiting for? Beg, borrow, demo or buy one for yourself. Then you be the judge. You can't lose. Even if you bought one you'd have no trouble selling it again if for some reason you didn't like it.
Last edited by drsurf on Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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tomtom
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:10 pm

slowboat wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:39 pm
tomtom (my dear virtual friend), please give up on the LW fight. I agree with you but you will never convince the flatearthers. My theory is that P4 is much cheaper than other large foil kites so people want to believe. Or, they mistakenly extrapolate the performance of smaller Peaks to larger sizes. Enough said.

I want to discuss proper wave foiling and the limits of using a kite, even ones as good as a small P4. On larger wave days, I have had my 3 meter P4 completely slack line and fall out of the sky a couple of times. Interested to learn how others avoid this. My conditions are usually side-on
Thank you for remind me my own promise! Really thanks!

Im riding just smaller stuff and i dont think you can do anything if you completely slack lines - except change your riding path so it wont happend = riding kite not a wave. There are limits for true waveriding with kite and direct downwind speed > than actual wind speed is one of them. Peak are IMO best wave riding kites but this is pure physical limit.
So i like /or dare/ smaller waves with less speed and energy in which you dont overrun kite.

Other POV - why do you think kitewing is as popular between "surfers"

Little Sci-fi:
Imagine small weak drone - just to hold peak above you with autopilot software for just that - otherwise kite carry drone = no power spend...

And last point is slower wing...
Bigger wings like moses 790 are really pump-able and slower.

You can deal with too much lift by moving yourself physically forward /strapless/ while down the line /this is Gunnars tip/

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby foilholio » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:40 pm

slowboat wrote: I want to discuss proper wave foiling and the limits of using a kite
A thread on this would be good, piece by piece the puzzle is coming together for me. Needless to say hydrofoils are well at home in waves :D .
slowboat wrote: On larger wave days, I have had my 3 meter P4 completely slack line and fall out of the sky a couple of times. Interested to learn how others avoid this.
You can't avoid slack lines when you exceed or approach close to wind speed. You can fly a kite to reduce the speed it needs to fly. You can fly it in reverse if you manage to go fast enough beyond wind speed, more something for under 10knots. If you do slack the lines then the kite directly at 12 o'clock/middle I would assume like with a double skin is best so the kite is balanced and will distort less. I often backstall or oversheet when slacking lines. Use oversheeting to recover the kite too, so is less likely to play up.
Trent hink wrote: Everywhere I've been to, the available power from the wind is proportional to the velocity squared.
I have often wondered if this is exactly true for kites. Because kites can move through the air faster, they will not always be seeing the same exact speed as the wind. I have noticed that the speed a kite can move through the air does not exactly scale as you would think with the wind speed. So say the speed in 10knots is not far off the speed in 20knots. Someone could and probably has done the measurements for peak pull from a kite in differing wind speeds. I think it is interesting. The design of the wing would be a large factor. Thinner airfoils would have the most speed in a bigger variety of wind speeds. I have noticed that bigger fatter kites seem to max out, or as wind speed passes a point the kites really don't seem to go much faster. The airfoil reaches it's limit. Like larger and thicker hydrofoils have lower speed limits.

Windspeed for a kite moving through the window can be looked as sink rate for planes, gliders, etc. This is why kites can still be flown around down to 1-3knots but not static flown in that wind.
tomtom wrote: There are limits for true waveriding with kite and direct downwind speed > than actual wind speed is one of them.
It depends what you call "wave" riding. Using the wave you can exceed the wind speed and have slack lines or you can exceed it more and continue flying the kite, like riding in offshore wind. Generally if you are driving more pull into the kite you need more wave power to overcome it. To feel more free on the wave like that a smaller kite with more depower is better. For slack lines the size of the kite doesn't matter, except bigger ones hold shape better and fall more slow.
tomtom wrote: Bigger wings like moses 790 are really pump-able and slower.
Even bigger than that is even better for pumping. That is a good size I think for many waves though. Stefs friend uses about that size.
tomtom wrote: You can deal with too much lift by moving yourself physically forward /strapless/ while down the line /this is Gunnars tip/
Of course, the problem is though the bigger the wing the earlier it maxes out speed, which means you can't ride some faster waves or have trouble moving along the face, can't make as many turns etc. Going slower and having more lift makes slower and smaller waves easier to stay on. If you want to slow down though you can ride more in front of the wave at the base. Mind you it gets very shallow on that part of the wave... the number of times I have eaten shit there.
tomtom wrote: Little Sci-fi:
Imagine small weak drone - just to hold peak above you with autopilot software for just that - otherwise kite carry drone = no power spend...
There is many things, maybe not practical for now but in the future. The simple thing I would like to see is dihedral kites so they drift really good on slack lines. An aluula diherdral tube kite would likely blow minds surfing.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Atte » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:56 pm

I find the discussion interesting about peak 4 is or is not a light wind kite. (I just ordered 2 peaks to try)

There must be a few of you guys out there that previews where Hydro foiling on Foil kites or "light wind" tubes. Can you guys please post what was you light wind weapon before you bought the peak 4 and what was your low end with that kite VS the low end on your peak 4 ?m?

What I'm looking for is what other kite is peak 4 5m, 8m, 11m and 13m similar to when it comes to low end. (I skip the 3m and 4m since they can't consider to be low wind kites?)

Thanks for all the info so far.

/Atte

Trent hink
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Trent hink » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:20 pm

drsurf wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:55 pm
tomtom you must have a completely different experience of light wind where you are. PEAK4 IS A LIGHT WIND KITE where I am.

We have 4 sources of wind speed measurement, a meteorological office one on a 100m high cliff about 9km across the bay from our beach, another meteorological office one on a peninsula approx 9km away downwind, another web based wind meter on a house behind the kite beach owned by a local kitesurfer and hand held devices owned by various kitesurfers on the beach. We draw our wind speed indications from a combination of all these devices.
This explains the confusion about light wind claims very well.

9 km is too far away to get an accurate measurement of the local conditions. I been at the beach and called my friend to report cranking good wind, only to find out that he was at a beach 9.5 km away where there was no where near enough wind to ride. And this is in Florida where the landscape is pretty flat and uniform.

Handheld annenometers measure the wind at a height of about 2 meters. They can not detect a wind gradient. How often are you flying the kite at 2 meters?

I propose that in light winds especially, a strong wind gradient is not uncommon but not always present.

So you might be getting a 6knot measurement in conditions with a wind gradient, but if you get that measurement in conditions where there is little to no wind gradient, you might be really unhappy and/or confused about some of the light-wind claims you may have heard.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby omg » Sat Feb 29, 2020 5:18 pm

well, I wouldn't say you can ride in 6 knots if it's just a lull what you are meaning. This LW debate wouldn't have started at all if everyone knew that it's about the lulls. However, to me and I assume many other people would interpret that if one says 6 knots without any specification it would mean at least the avg. wind. That's why they started to go against the 6 knot claims.
The info drsurf has provided is very valuable but it was about the interpretation differences, ie. what someone means is different to how the other person sees it.
For slack lining, I guess you need to move the kite in really low winds to avoid the slack lines, that's what we do with LEIs. I'm yet to believe that by having the kite at 12 oclock would just erase the problem of not getting slack lines when outrunning the kite as some here suggest at LW conditions.


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