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Flysurfer Peak 4

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joriws
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby joriws » Wed May 20, 2020 11:51 am

tomtom wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:37 am
So i just make humble confession i cannot ride with kite in that condition. Maybe somebody can. But you definitely cannot "just loop" :)
Well I cannot either, Horst Sergio would be my bet who could do it if he sometimes goes from lake to sea (or maybe Gunnar). If you ride in relative wind like I theoretically described you could *loop* the kite in relative wind but it would pull you wrong direction, back of the wave..

But sure I totally see your point, on true wind direction's downwind side you cannot loop the kite as probably proposed if rider is moving faster downwind than true wind. So I just made another point combining with matter of riding downwind faster than truewind that with wave's energy (or maybe even HF pumping) it should be possible due to relative wind, like biker seeing headwind every direction he rides.

You could practice this on beach for example in 2m/s wind if Peak4 is flying. 2m/s = 7.2km/h = very fast walking speed. So by jogging downwind like 10km/h and dragging the kite you could proof the concept and practice it.

This video is not on sub-topic here, going downwind on wave faster than truewind. But it shows Horst Sergio handling Peak and ConceptAir unhooked riding. So next step would be riding on a faster wave than true wind with kite turned flying LE first and dragged by rider.

(04:30=>)

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby flying doctor » Wed May 20, 2020 1:39 pm

[/quote]
I was talking about my Ego, sorry :cheers:
[/quote]

Thanks for clarifying Tom, cheers to you! :beer:

I see an interesting challenge arising from this topic, first to ride a wave with a Peak on tow wins! :winner2:
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Wed May 20, 2020 1:57 pm

joriws wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:51 am
tomtom wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:37 am
So i just make humble confession i cannot ride with kite in that condition. Maybe somebody can. But you definitely cannot "just loop" :)
Well I cannot either, Horst Sergio would be my bet who could do it if he sometimes goes from lake to sea (or maybe Gunnar). If you ride in relative wind like I theoretically described you could *loop* the kite in relative wind but it would pull you wrong direction, back of the wave..

But sure I totally see your point, on true wind direction's downwind side you cannot loop the kite as probably proposed if rider is moving faster downwind than true wind. So I just made another point combining with matter of riding downwind faster than truewind that with wave's energy (or maybe even HF pumping) it should be possible due to relative wind, like biker seeing headwind every direction he rides.

You could practice this on beach for example in 2m/s wind if Peak4 is flying. 2m/s = 7.2km/h = very fast walking speed. So by jogging downwind like 10km/h and dragging the kite you could proof the concept and practice it.

This video is not on sub-topic here, going downwind on wave faster than truewind. But it shows Horst Sergio handling Peak and ConceptAir unhooked riding. So next step would be riding on a faster wave than true wind with kite turned flying LE first and dragged by rider.

(04:30=>)
Gunnar is best rider i know /personally/ not YT, and this is one of reason why he is on wing - because exactly this its not possible with kite :)
I have quite experience with riding with kite behind me - from mountain snowkiting - flying downslopes. And unfortunately this is not peaks best discipline. Its too draggy - it slow you too much. But you need big sizes for flying and bigger size have bigger drag. So who knows maybe with 3m peak you could pull it but i would choose other kite for exactly this. :)

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed May 20, 2020 2:02 pm

palmbeacher wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:42 am
Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:47 am
bragnouff wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:37 am
I think only few people made the bold claim that the 5 works in 9-10kts. And if it does, it is quite tedious (for me, 9-10 is still low end for the 8m). The bottom of wind range is dictated by how/if you can get your ass on the board after a couple of loops. And on the Peak, that takes a fair bit of precise tuning in your sheeting. If you pull on the bar to painfully extract your ass out of the water, you need to make sure the kite isn't choked the slightest when doing so. More extreme cases of backstall in light wind would see the kite pivot turn / helicopter turn in place. And this is one of the few cases where you can lose control of kite position and steer it in the drink!

Very true.

9-10 knots is NOT the range of a 5 m2, only if you weigh "nothing", or have no clue about wind strength...

Once up, which is not possible if no gusts, it is possible to surf waves yes, but not its sweetspot at all, not even close, even with a marginal wind wing in my experience, being average weight.

8) Peter
‘ Too little wind to get my ass out of the water in 8 knots, but that was to be expected with a 5 m2 and 78 kg of course.

Okay, the wind picked up to 9 to 10 knots, and the Peak kite had very good peak power, so now I could start, and once up, I was foiling no problems.’

Peter, just wanted to clarify what you wrote earlier about the 5m as it contradicts what you are saying now?

Which is your favorite kite for the 9-10kts range?

I have no idea...

Probably my 10 m2 onestrut kite or a 9 m2 wavekite is my preferred in this wind, but dont know, as I got the 8 m2 Peak4 now also, but only ridden once.

Even if I was able to get up and ride in 10 knots on my marginal wind wing (Ketos Kruizer 1100), it is still too low for me to choose this size in 9-10 knots.


joriws, I dont get your point, arent we saying the same thing?
My statement is, that if you have apparent wind directly offshore, riding in on a wave, you can have a kite in the air.
Of course it does not contribute to forward pull, only a very small tad if flown to the side, but more likely a bit of drag the wrong direction.

If NO wind, and you get up riding on a wave, you will be able to fly a kite alongside, using the apparent wind to keep it in the air.
Difficult or impossible to start I know, but still possible once up, using the wave energy as the origin of the "apparent wind power" needed to keep the kite flying, besides you surfing the wave.

If you took a skateboard on a downhill road, a day with no wind at all, you could put the Peak on the ground, start rolling down the road, and get the kite up and fly while you skate downhill, apparent wind will make the kite fly just fine while you surf down the road :thumb:

More difficult, close to impossible, if wind is going downhill at your very VMG riding speed, but would still be possible if you ride diagonally from side to side thus getting apparent wind again.
No power contribution, mostly drag from the kite.


The same goes for a wing, when held in the hand in offshore wind, it does not contribute to forward pull, only drag.

8) Peter

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jumptheshark
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jumptheshark » Wed May 20, 2020 2:14 pm

Towing a small peak down swell into straight off shore wind might be amazing. Doing it it onshore winds might be possible in theory, but pretty tough to pull off in reality, especially on a kite that will crumple and fall in moments of zero line tension. Would take a real expert to recognize precisely when their board speed is approaching the windspeed and appropriately loop their kite off to the side to transition it from in front of them to dragging behind them without losing line tension. Then to know when to do it again in reverse when board speed slows back down. I bet you could get moments of truly towing the kite while surfing in perfect side shore conditions. For wind traveling down swell, you need a fantastic rider and big long running downwind swell thats moving faster than the wind. In essence it takes a lot of piloting, pretty much the opposite of what the wings offer with their ability to comfortably handle complete shifts in apparent wind. Kites are kites, wings are wings. They both have strengths and drawbacks that suit different conditions.

Here is a slightly off topic but related comment.... at least wrt Peak kites.

Have rigged a bar with a trim strap and chicken loop for easy unhooking the last couple times out. So far its plenty fun except for having to use a leash again! Like learning anything new, I'm going to flesh it out in the real bottom half of the kites wind range.

Where the end goal is to ride swell downwind unhooked in the kites sweet spot, I think as bonus, it may open up a really fun way to ride in super light wind conditions and maybe even a better way to get up and foiling at the kites true low end limits. In the same way riding around unhooked on snow in light wind is fun. Low loads, freedom from the harness, great power production and better workout for the upper body could be a really nice way to find some bliss when there are no little swell to play on.

From how similar it feels to unhooking on snow, I have a a hunch that unhooked waterstarts might be one of the best ways to get up and going at the kites very bottom end.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby joriws » Wed May 20, 2020 2:50 pm

tomtom wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 1:57 pm
Gunnar is best rider i know /personally/ not YT, and this is one of reason why he is on wing - because exactly this its not possible with kite :)
I have quite experience with riding with kite behind me - from mountain snowkiting - flying downslopes. And unfortunately this is not peaks best discipline. Its too draggy - it slow you too much. But you need big sizes for flying and bigger size have bigger drag. So who knows maybe with 3m peak you could pull it but i would choose other kite for exactly this. :)
Sure Gunnar is very/most capable hydrofoiler&kiter so I am not dissing him. Maybe Gunnar has never though of relative wind that "what I can do with it" and drags kitewing behind him without thinking what makes the wing stay airborne. He's at living at location he could do the testing anyday with a kite. Is he willing publicly to test (share video for our joyment) that with Hyperlink or something he has, he probably does not have single skin Ozone kite?

Why I said Horst is that he's doing experimental things (stabless foiling, kiteloop-360) without too much hesitation, I mean he was the first person publicly sharing kiteloop-360 on water (hydrofoil) AFAIK and I think I encouraged Horst (I don't know him) on KF's topic, saying similar as on this topic that on HF drag kiteloop-360 should be possible as it is possible on low friction thing on hard soil/ice. Sure on buggies/skis/skates it has been done tens of years ago, but the first one on water.

That is true what you say about dragging kite, it would be like dragging kite downslope in mountain. I know that too because I snowkite a lot. But usually how we ride mountain is that downslope is also headwind headwind ("on-shore or side-on-shore") so apparent wind increases causing more lift and drag ie more resist from kite. But in this case true wind is coming from the back subtracting apparent wind so hoping less drag slowing hydrofoil down.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jumptheshark » Wed May 20, 2020 9:21 pm

At some point I'll get around to trying this set up to see just how low I can manage a waterstart the 5m. 27m lines, split at the halfway point. Trimmed to unhook and function as a fixed bridle for peak power at the bottom end. Flies and hangs easily unhooked here in about 4-5 knots. Gotta say, this kite is dead simple to trim nicely. Too much rear line tension and you can see the distortion in the TE. Trim that out so the canopy stays clean while you work it around and it produces nice power and keeps its speed, working through successive loops and fig 8's without stalling. The trim on that bar has the rear lines just a couple cm longer than the fronts. On bars with shorter line length to be used once the kite is actually into its proper wind range, I have the rear lines just a couple cm shorter than the fronts to facilitate a little more backstall control.

If this works, it should be a blast to cruise around playing the kite against the foil unhooked.
IMG_4719.jpg

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Frankieboy » Wed May 20, 2020 9:30 pm

nice bar steup btw
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Trent hink
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Trent hink » Wed May 20, 2020 9:41 pm

Is it even possible to do a 360 with the peak? In my experience, mostly with the 8 and 11 meter, but a few times with the 5 or 4, the kite completely collapses at the point where it reaches zero line tension.

Usually at that point i come off the foil and the kite floats downwind and recovers while airborne.

The peak has very little inertia and no structure. I suspect it is not possible, so all this talk about generating "negative" apparent wind seems moot.

Then again, I could be wrong. I do know enough to know that i do not know everything.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby bragnouff » Wed May 20, 2020 10:14 pm

Yeah, well, the point of zero line tension is where you enter into unpredictability and potential collapse. The good thing is that it takes quite a bit of deliberate effort on the Peak to reach that point, but it happens, and when it collapses, the outcome is not always clear, can get a bit of bridle catch on the tip, or it might be facing an other direction, or be somewhat inside out. On the other hand with a light LEI, it is very easy to reach the point of zero line tension, but somehow, this is predictable and dependable. You know that there is maybe 2 seconds where the kite will nosedive, but as soon as you regain tension, it'll be back in business as you expect it.
I've played with that quite a bit on a buggy, and that's an interesting fun part of the game!


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