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Flysurfer Peak 4

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PrfctChaos
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby PrfctChaos » Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:17 am

Great video, thanks for making and posting it.

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jumptheshark
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jumptheshark » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:17 am

That is why your really are THE MAN!

Hugely helpful

That initial sequence to inflate and lay it out to drifts properly. Gonna use your moves from here on out!

Amazing low end get up and go work.

So impressive.

Thank you.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Smeagle » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:22 pm

Very nice thread, I read a lot of pages for several hours and got a lot of information and opinion ;) But really too long to read it all.

I have a full range of Closed Cells (Pansh Aurora 22m down to 7m)

On land/grass I can ride from ~6..8 knots. On concrete the 12m is fine even down to ~5 knots. But on grass or snow I need 15m/22m instead. But I don't like the handling of the very big closed cell kites on land.

So I want to get a peak 4 for the very lowest wind range, for snow, land and only "maybe" water... So right now I am deciding between 11m and 13m. Right now I am leaning towards the 13m.

Someone mentioned, the Peak 4 13m is somewhat "better" than the Peak 4 11m. Like the 13m is a "Peak 4.5" ;)

Is that true? What do you think?

I'm ~90kg using Snowboard / ATB (9" wheels). I will try it on water for sure, but that's only secondary. Maybe I will get a 6m for foiling later, right now I am a beginner on Foil and use a 10m single strut for that.

Thanks,
- Oliver

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby clint2070 » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:02 pm

Smeagle wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:22 pm
Very nice thread, I read a lot of pages for several hours and got a lot of information and opinion ;) But really too long to read it all.

I have a full range of Closed Cells (Pansh Aurora 22m down to 7m)

On land/grass I can ride from ~6..8 knots. On concrete the 12m is fine even down to ~5 knots. But on grass or snow I need 15m/22m instead. But I don't like the handling of the very big closed cell kites on land.

So I want to get a peak 4 for the very lowest wind range, for snow, land and only "maybe" water... So right now I am deciding between 11m and 13m. Right now I am leaning towards the 13m.

Someone mentioned, the Peak 4 13m is somewhat "better" than the Peak 4 11m. Like the 13m is a "Peak 4.5" ;)

Is that true? What do you think?

I'm ~90kg using Snowboard / ATB (9" wheels). I will try it on water for sure, but that's only secondary. Maybe I will get a 6m for foiling later, right now I am a beginner on Foil and use a 10m single strut for that.

Thanks,
- Oliver
i have an 11m peak 4 for sale if you want one

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Kitedougiefresh » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:22 am

Smeagle wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:22 pm
Very nice thread, I read a lot of pages for several hours and got a lot of information and opinion ;) But really too long to read it all.

I have a full range of Closed Cells (Pansh Aurora 22m down to 7m)

On land/grass I can ride from ~6..8 knots. On concrete the 12m is fine even down to ~5 knots. But on grass or snow I need 15m/22m instead. But I don't like the handling of the very big closed cell kites on land.

So I want to get a peak 4 for the very lowest wind range, for snow, land and only "maybe" water... So right now I am deciding between 11m and 13m. Right now I am leaning towards the 13m.

Someone mentioned, the Peak 4 13m is somewhat "better" than the Peak 4 11m. Like the 13m is a "Peak 4.5" ;)

Is that true? What do you think?

I'm ~90kg using Snowboard / ATB (9" wheels). I will try it on water for sure, but that's only secondary. Maybe I will get a 6m for foiling later, right now I am a beginner on Foil and use a 10m single strut for that.

Thanks,
- Oliver
I am 100KG and fly the 5m, 8m and 13m on water. I owned the 11m prior. (the 13m had not been released at that point.) I find the 13m has more grunt and the responsiveness is very comparable to the 11m. I sold my 11m to a friend who is of a more normal size and he finds it very helpful to have when he can not get going on his 8m.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby joriws » Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:10 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:52 pm
tomtom wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:11 pm
Light kite have less peak power than heavy kite. Reason for this is you can directly change kite forward speed momentum for lift. Heavy kite have more momentum = more energy to change for lift
Sorry to say tomtom, but this is definitely not true...

I havent calculated on this, but pretty certain the kinetic energy (momentum almost) of a kite that can be converted to pull is almost nothing, and pretty besides the point also...

The thing is, that the heavier a kite is (or ANY object) the more force (pull or loss in power down through the lines) is needed to accelerate the kite.

That goes both for accelerating straight, or when turning.
As a turn IS the same as acceleration.

So the heavier the kite, the worse it turns and accelerates - a huge amount of loss, so you lose a lot of "power" down to you on your board :(

Also, if heavy, it can not fly "up" in lighter winds, does not accelerate nearly the same at least, thus you kill the up power spike totally.

Yes, it got a reasonable powerspike when dived and longer lines as gravity helps, but it will be taken away again when flown up - and overall a lot less power/pull available, and not on demand either, compared to a lighter kite that can accelerate in all directions in the wind window, much faster.

So no, weight is never a good thing whatsoever - regarding flying characteristics :wink:
Sorry going back for few week old post but this haunted me and I finally had time to comment it.

I think you should note differences of "heavy kite" when talking closed cell foil kites. Inertial mass and buoyancy mass are different with closed cell foil kites. 15sqm foil kites are not heavy kites in terms of flying/staying in the air, but they are "heavy" in "flywheel" effect. Inertial mass is kinetic energy you can use for getting top of board and inertial mass is fabric + air mass you accelerate. Buoyancy mass is how well kite stays in the air and on closed cell foil kite ram-air in buoyancy mass is like 1g because it is atmospheric air (not accounting sun heating effect, just considering ram-air over pressure).

So if you got (12kg from very old rough kite volume calc I did decade ago for our friend PMU with Speed3 21m) 12kg mass in move 10m/s (quite fair 36km/h), you got 600J of kinetic energy "stored" in the kite. With that energy without true wind adding more energy to airfoil or gravity (at kite end converting potentional energy to kinetic) in the kite dive, you have 600J of energy available to increase your (rider) potential energy with your mass center (85kg) 72cm straight up. I am not calculating diving the kite, just flying speed in this post.

This is why closed cell foil kites excel in ultra-low-wind (single digit in knots), as if you get them flying nice arcs with nice speed with proper steering and sheeting, good l/d you get you enough force impulse to lift you up from water and accelerate foil board to fly in very easy way without milking. They have power (kinetic energy), they "slip" in the air less (wing loading), they have best L/D of power kite world for fastest flying speed with same drag etc.

Now Peak4 both masses are the same as no air trapped inside, if the 'fabric' flies 10m/s and kite&mixer weights 2kg, you have 100J of kinetic energy, so 1/6th of closed cell's in above example. If you get Peak4 to fly 25m/s then it has same 625J energy you get almost free with closed cell foil kite. Also when you sheet in, Peak4's lower inertia decelerates kite more. But that is another time to evaluate.

It is true that kite flying speed is more important than mass, and turning is acceleration and poor turn will not keep kite flying speed up to achieve good kinetic energy levels.

I would like people to be more precise when talking, like what peak power they actually mean. As in physics "peak power" we know, but in kiting I think more important is "force impulse", which is "force * time force applies". How to get the "power" to last long enough to get on top of board and accelerate board with forces of nature available with skills of you to harness the forces available. Some kites are easier on that. Like Horst Sergios latest Peak4 launch & relaunch video, quite heavy looping over and over to get going. With Sonic3, single dive and boom off he would have gone. .

I am not comparing any other characteristics or personal preferences, just saying that closed cell kite would have been on that part a lot "easier". But we like challenges.. I ordered W790 to see how I can get Peak4 5m to perform even lower winds over my existing W633..

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jakemoore
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jakemoore » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:19 pm

joriws wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:10 pm
Buoyancy mass is how well kite stays in the air and on closed cell foil kite ram-air in buoyancy mass is like 1g
But the weight of the cloth itself is so different. Peak4 13 weighs 700 grams less than Soul 12. Soul represents a 42% increase in the weight of the cloth itself.

The idea of air in the kite acting as a flywheel is in interesting one. I wonder if it explains the closed cell kites better water start in lowest wind more so than increased airflow over a faster more efficient kite.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Flyboy » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:35 pm

I hesitate to get involved in a discussion regarding physics & aerodynamics ... but is there any point at which the weight of the kite going down (with gravity) reacts differently from the weight of the kite (against gravity) going up? So, in marginal winds LEI kites work better on the downstroke than they do on the upstroke? When trying to get up on the foil in light winds, the LEI kite dives down OK, but then there's that disappointing moment when it really doesn't want to go back up with any conviction. Does the relatively light weight of a Peak4 (or any foil kite) help overcome the inertia of the kite turning from the downstroke to the upstroke?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:33 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:35 pm
I hesitate to get involved in a discussion regarding physics & aerodynamics ... but is there any point at which the weight of the kite going down (with gravity) reacts differently from the weight of the kite (against gravity) going up? So, in marginal winds LEI kites work better on the downstroke than they do on the upstroke? When trying to get up on the foil in light winds, the LEI kite dives down OK, but then there's that disappointing moment when it really doesn't want to go back up with any conviction. Does the relatively light weight of a Peak4 (or any foil kite) help overcome the inertia of the kite turning from the downstroke to the upstroke?

Exactly, that is the whole point.

LEI kites sucks bigtime, as they can only give some power when flying down, and still less than foilkites, and they lose power because they are heavier, when turned.
And when flying up, unless hugely powered which is not the case for hydrofoiling, they are useless...

As simple as that.

Light kites are agile and can accelerate in any direction, so power on demand, and for a much longer time if looped and not too big :thumb:

I disagree that the trapped air weight of a double skin kite is of ANY benefit at all, except for keeping foilkites more stable in the profile of course...
They are a lot more performant as higher AR and lower drag, which is why they can start in less wind, but that is about it.
Think it will be a neverending discussion though, as noone got any facts about this.

Try to hang 2 x 1 kg at your kite at the connection points at each line, and see if you can start "earlier" now?
I doubt it very very much - dont even want to test as I am quite sure weight is a disadvantage overall, just like on any board :rollgrin:

8) Peter

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Trent hink » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:28 am

Surely most of you know the old grade-school science lesson where you hang two balloons in balance on a stick, then pop one.

Thus demonstrating that air has mass and that the mass makes a measurable difference.

If anyone's contention is that that a black mattress will heat up and fly better than a white one, I would like to know, in what conditions will this be a real and measurable effect?


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