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Flysurfer Peak 4

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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed May 20, 2020 9:25 am

No p4 experience yet ( Flysurfer has fabricaltion delays), but in 9-10 knots I still like riding with my 15m , so I agree and hard to figure-out I could love the 5m under 11 knots even if powerfull for its size ! :bye: unsless fabulous waves maybe ?

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby joriws » Wed May 20, 2020 9:34 am

tomtom wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:15 pm
Ego aside. How hard is to understand that if you are moving 20 mph /wave powered/ in straight downwind direction in 15 mph wind then no amount of looping cannot save your kite. Where you get power /wind gradient/ to power these kite loops? I will not argue about this any more. What you are proposing is downwind faster than wind - google the topic.
I have not participated this branch of topic previously so I am stating a bit outsider.

Just to make sure that I understand you tomtom correctly. You cannot/do not consider /rider/ pulling the kite when the /wave/ propulses the rider is possible? There is always apparent wind on weirdly twisted wind window for rider/kite combo.. Quickly thinking (so I might be wrong), but only impossible is wave speed = 90% true wind speed meaning kite sees 0-2kn wind. But the point would be getting kite flying not drifting TE first to new apparent wind pulled by rider and rider gets energy from wave. In your example you use 20mph rider speed down winde and 15mph wind so there should be 5mph wind for the kite to fly LE first pulled by rider.

How is then "deadman's turn" or "galactical" or kiteloop-360 possible? There /rider/ inertia is used to pull kite circle 100% upwind of rider in "impossible" wind window. You have to start thinking relative winds which is always 100% true when anchor point = rider is moving.


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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed May 20, 2020 10:24 am

Must say, even if you travel with the exact windspeed on a wave, the wave will move you, meaning if you go just a tad to one side or the other you will get apparent wind not zero, and possible to get the kite to hang eventhough it does not deliver much pull in wave direction.

But it is true, if you travel in the very same direction as the wave and wind, it is not possible not even if looped, as this corresponds to standing on the beach in zero wind, and here it is not possible to fly or loop any kite to keep it flying.

Only if you move very subtle around on the spot (which one could do on a wave), you can fly a kite in zero wind.

If the wave moves faster than the wind, or you ride diagonally, you can fly the kite so it does not go down, wind direction is just reversed and you dont get forward pull from the kite.

8) Peter

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Wed May 20, 2020 10:27 am

flying doctor wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 6:58 am
tomtom wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:15 pm
Ego aside. How hard is to understand that if you are moving 20 mph /wave powered/ in straight downwind direction in 15 mph wind then no amount of looping cannot save your kite. Where you get power /wind gradient/ to power these kite loops? I will not argue about this any more. What you are proposing is downwind faster than wind - google the topic.

"Would I have been better of trying to park the kite above my head? "
From kite drifting perspective it may be ultimate position for really slacken lines. Or may be not depends on many factors. And yes looping are overated advice. There are more efficient way to fly kite than loops for many situations.
If I'm introducing my ego here I'm sorry, but you'd have to be more specific in how I'm doing that exactly.

I totally agree that you can't go faster than the wind. Like I said: physics apply.
For me the technique of looping the kite means it travels with speed through the window for a moment allowing me the momentum to travel with the wave for a short while. If the wind is light the kite will stall through the loop and I quickly need to point up wind, sheet out to save the stall and gain speed. And the hopefully I'll be able to drop in again.

I totally respect your opinion that there are more efficient techniques but I would like to hear them. I'm on this forum to learn from other experiences so please share them with me.
I was talking about my Ego, sorry :cheers:

You perspective coming from fact that you was not confronted with wave that push you fast enough to the lines /wave size/speed vs wave direction/. Need for kite redirecting /looping/ was mainly because LEI kites are heavy and have strong momentum to stay in place or continue in direction they were travel. So if you are moving downwind towards kite kite "stay in place" or continue to edge instead of just "drifting with wind" they just stay in place and you end up with unstable nonreactive kite. Most LEIs also have center of gravity towards leading edge so they ends up hindenburg and fall. Peaks have almost no need for redirecting - because they have almost zero momentum and they are just drifted with wind and keep shape as long there are some minimum line tension. I think if you are approaching line slack on Peaks /which is quite difficult thing to do/ you have better chance to keep it in shape /non collapsing/just like static piece of blanket - without forward movement because there is much stronger tendency to collapse when kite is flying forward instead of just drifting with wind, because as soon as you slack lines there is literary nothing that hold peaks in shape. In those situation its better to keep kite backstalled in center of WW and relatively high towards zenith. You have also better chance for kite to reopen if its higher and deeper. I also dont find to necessarily to moving peaks while riding wave - then i have most kiteless feeling. So i just keep them stalled or at edge of back stall and just riding the board without kite. There is big difference between riding wave with and without kite support. I dont want to prefer any it both have its place. Its just different and different technique are needed :)
Last edited by tomtom on Wed May 20, 2020 10:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Wed May 20, 2020 10:31 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:24 am
Must say, even if you travel with the exact windspeed on a wave, the wave will move you, meaning if you go just a tad to one side or the other you will get apparent wind not zero, and possible to get the kite to hang eventhough it does not deliver much pull in wave direction.

But it is true, if you travel in the very same direction as the wave and wind, it is not possible not even if looped, as this corresponds to standing on the beach in zero wind, and here it is not possible to fly or loop any kite to keep it flying.

Only if you move very subtle around on the spot (which one could do on a wave), you can fly a kite in zero wind.

If the wave moves faster than the wind, or you ride diagonally, you can fly the kite so it does not go down, wind direction is just reversed and you dont get forward pull from the kite.

8) Peter
imagine wing riders with flared wing behind them - this kind of riding isnt possible with any kite. Still Peak is by FAR best kite for approaching this. And to scratch me ego :) I was one of first Peaks preachers :)

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Wed May 20, 2020 10:44 am

joriws wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:34 am
tomtom wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:15 pm
Ego aside. How hard is to understand that if you are moving 20 mph /wave powered/ in straight downwind direction in 15 mph wind then no amount of looping cannot save your kite. Where you get power /wind gradient/ to power these kite loops? I will not argue about this any more. What you are proposing is downwind faster than wind - google the topic.
I have not participated this branch of topic previously so I am stating a bit outsider.

Just to make sure that I understand you tomtom correctly. You cannot/do not consider /rider/ pulling the kite when the /wave/ propulses the rider is possible? There is always apparent wind on weirdly twisted wind window for rider/kite combo.. Quickly thinking (so I might be wrong), but only impossible is wave speed = 90% true wind speed meaning kite sees 0-2kn wind. But the point would be getting kite flying not drifting TE first to new apparent wind pulled by rider and rider gets energy from wave. In your example you use 20mph rider speed down winde and 15mph wind so there should be 5mph wind for the kite to fly LE first pulled by rider.

How is then "deadman's turn" or "galactical" or kiteloop-360 possible? There /rider/ inertia is used to pull kite circle 100% upwind of rider in "impossible" wind window. You have to start thinking relative winds which is always 100% true when anchor point = rider is moving.
kiteloop-360 possible is kite rider inertia excersice/trick.

Still im talking about this.


Its just not possible with kite - yet peaks are best kite for approaching it.

You can argue that he is riding in wrong direction - but he is riding in direction which he want and wave dictate not in direction "so his kite doesnt collapse"

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby joriws » Wed May 20, 2020 11:02 am

tomtom wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:44 am
joriws wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:34 am

I have not participated this branch of topic previously so I am stating a bit outsider.

Just to make sure that I understand you tomtom correctly. You cannot/do not consider /rider/ pulling the kite when the /wave/ propulses the rider is possible? There is always apparent wind on weirdly twisted wind window for rider/kite combo.. Quickly thinking (so I might be wrong), but only impossible is wave speed = 90% true wind speed meaning kite sees 0-2kn wind. But the point would be getting kite flying not drifting TE first to new apparent wind pulled by rider and rider gets energy from wave. In your example you use 20mph rider speed down winde and 15mph wind so there should be 5mph wind for the kite to fly LE first pulled by rider.

How is then "deadman's turn" or "galactical" or kiteloop-360 possible? There /rider/ inertia is used to pull kite circle 100% upwind of rider in "impossible" wind window. You have to start thinking relative winds which is always 100% true when anchor point = rider is moving.
kiteloop-360 possible is kite rider inertia excersice/trick.

Its just not possible with kite - yet peaks are best kite for approaching it.

You can argue that he is riding in wrong direction - but he is riding in direction which he want and wave dictate not in direction "so his kite doesnt collapse"
I'd still argue that and widen your perspective (Peter Frank's too). Gunnar is *pulling* wing behind him and wing is seeing apparent wind because it is "horizontal". If no apparent wind then wing would be vertical (TE towards sea) if lifted from mid of front of the wing like Gunnar does, like on beach zero wind wing would just hang towards ground. So essentially this is very same trick as kiteloop-360, anchor point moving generating apparent wind for airfoil hauled behind.

What if you put Peak4 flying exactly the same direction as the wing is with Gunnar and wave => rider pulls it. Kite will stay in the air with lines tensioned if there is enough apparent wind for kite to stay airborne (my statement if wave speed = true wind speed, apparent wind would not allow flying the kite). Perhaps easier for rider's balance unhook Peak4 and drag it with your rear hand. With wrist twist you can probably steer it a bit. Check Horst Sergio's unhooked Peak-video on YT or was it FB or IG, I think I saw something like that when browsing feeds but did not watch it.

Again, remember everything is relative. Airplane can lift-off ground with zero or even negative ground speed. Airfoil airspeed is everything what matters. I've landed my hang glider with negative ground speed. Biker riding 10m/s on 5m/s true wind will face opposing wind every driving direction, just 15m/s on headwind and relative headwind 5m/s on opposite tailwind direction.
Last edited by joriws on Wed May 20, 2020 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Strekke » Wed May 20, 2020 11:28 am

bragnouff wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:37 am
I think only few people made the bold claim that the 5 works in 9-10kts. And if it does, it is quite tedious (for me, 9-10 is still low end for the 8m). The bottom of wind range is dictated by how/if you can get your ass on the board after a couple of loops. And on the Peak, that takes a fair bit of precise tuning in your sheeting. If you pull on the bar to painfully extract your ass out of the water, you need to make sure the kite isn't choked the slightest when doing so. More extreme cases of backstall in light wind would see the kite pivot turn / helicopter turn in place. And this is one of the few cases where you can lose control of kite position and steer it in the drink!
Yes perhaps I was too optimistic about the low end, as I also read that the sweet spot of the 5m is more up in the 12-15 knot wind range. However, several people did post that the 5m translates into an 8/9m LEI. Compared to my 9m ultra, it doesn't, low end wise. But then again I was also struggling with the ultra, especially toeside, and did end up dropping it and swimming in. Looking forward to doing a back-to-back test with both kites in a solid 10+ knots. Will report back in detail here!

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Wed May 20, 2020 11:37 am

joriws wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:02 am
tomtom wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:44 am
joriws wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:34 am

I have not participated this branch of topic previously so I am stating a bit outsider.

Just to make sure that I understand you tomtom correctly. You cannot/do not consider /rider/ pulling the kite when the /wave/ propulses the rider is possible? There is always apparent wind on weirdly twisted wind window for rider/kite combo.. Quickly thinking (so I might be wrong), but only impossible is wave speed = 90% true wind speed meaning kite sees 0-2kn wind. But the point would be getting kite flying not drifting TE first to new apparent wind pulled by rider and rider gets energy from wave. In your example you use 20mph rider speed down winde and 15mph wind so there should be 5mph wind for the kite to fly LE first pulled by rider.

How is then "deadman's turn" or "galactical" or kiteloop-360 possible? There /rider/ inertia is used to pull kite circle 100% upwind of rider in "impossible" wind window. You have to start thinking relative winds which is always 100% true when anchor point = rider is moving.
kiteloop-360 possible is kite rider inertia excersice/trick.

Its just not possible with kite - yet peaks are best kite for approaching it.

You can argue that he is riding in wrong direction - but he is riding in direction which he want and wave dictate not in direction "so his kite doesnt collapse"
I'd still argue that and widen your perspective (Peter Frank's too). Gunnar is *pulling* wing behind him and wing is seeing apparent wind because it is "horizontal". If no apparent wind then wing would be vertical (TE towards sea) if lifted from mid of front of the wing like Gunnar does, like on beach zero wind wing would just hang towards ground. So essentially this is very same trick as kiteloop-360, anchor point moving generating apparent wind for airfoil hauled behind.

What if you put Peak4 flying exactly the same direction as the wing is with Gunnar and wave => rider pulls it. Kite will stay in the air with lines tensioned if there is enough apparent wind for kite to stay airborne (my statement if wave speed = true wind speed, apparent wind would not allow flying the kite). Perhaps easier for rider's balance unhook Peak4 and drag it with your rear hand. With wrist twist you can probably steer it a bit. Check Horst Sergio's unhooked Peak-video on YT.

Again, remember everything is relative. Airplane can lift-off ground with zero or even negative ground speed. Airfoil airspeed is everything what matters. I've landed my hang glider with negative ground speed. Biker riding 10m/s on 5m/s true wind will face opposing wind every driving direction, just 15m/s on headwind and relative headwind 5m/s on opposite tailwind direction.
So i just make humble confession i cannot ride with kite in that condition. Maybe somebody can. But you definitely cannot "just loop" :)

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby palmbeacher » Wed May 20, 2020 11:42 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:47 am
bragnouff wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:37 am
I think only few people made the bold claim that the 5 works in 9-10kts. And if it does, it is quite tedious (for me, 9-10 is still low end for the 8m). The bottom of wind range is dictated by how/if you can get your ass on the board after a couple of loops. And on the Peak, that takes a fair bit of precise tuning in your sheeting. If you pull on the bar to painfully extract your ass out of the water, you need to make sure the kite isn't choked the slightest when doing so. More extreme cases of backstall in light wind would see the kite pivot turn / helicopter turn in place. And this is one of the few cases where you can lose control of kite position and steer it in the drink!

Very true.

9-10 knots is NOT the range of a 5 m2, only if you weigh "nothing", or have no clue about wind strength...

Once up, which is not possible if no gusts, it is possible to surf waves yes, but not its sweetspot at all, not even close, even with a marginal wind wing in my experience, being average weight.

8) Peter
‘ Too little wind to get my ass out of the water in 8 knots, but that was to be expected with a 5 m2 and 78 kg of course.

Okay, the wind picked up to 9 to 10 knots, and the Peak kite had very good peak power, so now I could start, and once up, I was foiling no problems.’

Peter, just wanted to clarify what you wrote earlier about the 5m as it contradicts what you are saying now?

Which is your favorite kite for the 9-10kts range?


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