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Flysurfer Peak 4

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Onda
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Onda » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:19 am

That´s interesting info on the Kitech. Never came across this brand yet.
However, a 12 m² Kitech FRS is more than double the price of a 8 m² Peak4. Guess I´ll stick with the Peak ;-)

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby a99 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:16 pm

Will be interesting how much lower coming 6m peak will have comparing with 5m. If even about 2-3 knots it will be wonderful. Maybe they even will use new some material? Less weight is always wanted:)

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby tomtom » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:25 pm

9m FRS have about same price and low end than 8m peak. At least what i pay for it. There is law of diminishing return with bigger peaks. 3-4-5 are king sizes.
People who likes more power likes bigger peaks and praise them - but there is little peak magic in bigger peaks except stability and user friendliness. If you want more low end and like peaks just use bigger wing. I can use 5m Peak in 10 knots. 86 kg 1500cm wing.
Anyway in direct back to back compare between 8m Peak and 9m FRS - 9m FRS is just better kite - period.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby drsurf » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:30 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:41 am
So, we seem to go round in circles on this a bit. There's a consensus that the 5m, 4m, & 3m are "fun" because they are small, light & lively with great drift for riding downwind on waves or swell. But there's some hesitation about recommending the bigger sizes because they are slower & so lack some of the qualities that make the smaller ones appealing. However ... there's still a place for a kite that works in light wind ie. sub-10 knots for an average ( 75 - 85 kg) foiler. For that wind you could get a 10m or bigger Soul, but that's a lot more expensive & "complicated than a Peak4. An 8m Peak4 may not be as much fun as the smaller Peaks, but how much Peak4 fun performance is it reasonable to expect in 10 knots or less?

So, you come back to the question of how light a wind do you want to foil in? Will 8m Peak4 will start working in 9 knots? A 5m Peak4 in 12 knots? Perhaps a 6m Peak4 will start working in 10 knots? I think I'm happy with foiling in 10 knots & above rather than chasing the really low wind days. So a choice between an 8m & 5m quiver, or a 6m & 4m quiver?
There's really a simple explanation regarding the performance of Peak4 kites of various sizes and it's basically due to simple physics. First however I define the Peak4 as a kite best suited to surf hydrofoils of approx. 1000 sq cm and larger. So this tends to mean where not going for high speed or jumping but manoeuvrability.

So given these hydrofoil parameters we want a kite that offers manoeuvrability to match the foil in a wide range of wind conditions. The lightness of the Peak4 and the fact that it sits deep in the wind window gives manoeuvrability even in gusty conditions where other kites may overfly or stall. Accordingly a smaller kite gives more responsiveness to aid manoeuvrability because it is so light and the wind it requires to develop enough power to foil is correspondingly higher. Of course higher wind speed means more energy at your disposal as the energy embodied in the wind increases exponentially with the wind speed. A small Peak4 can also deal with gusty wind with lulls as it can be moved fast within the window to increase apparent wind for periods of time. So this paragraph pretty well covers the experience of flying a 3m, 4m and 5m Peak4 which can cover, depending on your weight, foil and skill, in winds from 10 to 30 knots.

So the physics above deals with the fun winds for kitefoiling, so when it's 10 knots or less it's the domain of the 8m, 111m and 13m Peak4 kites. However although most of the sizes of Peak4 kites will fly in 3knots, you are not likely to get enough power to foil satisfactorily until approx. 6 knots of wind. So in essence you have three sizes of kite that are focused on quite a narrow range of wind from say 6 knots to 12 knots, as after 12 knots you'll probably enjoy a 5m more. That's not to say that these larger sizes won't work in 12 knots plus however.
So given the narrow range of wind where these big kites will get you foiling, the exponential forces come into play in reverse in that the lighter the wind the more challenging it is to get enough energy out of it to foil. Surface area will get you there but the physical forces of friction also increase with size so you enter a situation of diminishing returns.

So more wind = smaller P4's = more fun. And this applies to all kites regardless of type. You can get around the forces of friction with a more efficient design of kite like having double skins. However you then add weight of material plus the weight of the air trapped inside which = less manoeuvrability an high $$.
So a Peak4 kite is a compromise in lighter winds with sizes 8 to 13. However it is a very good compromise if your using the kite within the parameters I outlined at the start, and you'll be foiling when most other kiters have packed up or their kites have fallen from the sky.

One other point, when it's stated that a Peak4 8m, 11m or 13m kite is slow ... compared to what?? Given the power a Peak4 produces for its size, it's usually considerably faster in turning and speed through the air than a comparable inflatable or twin skin kite. Remember an 8m Peak4 for example is roughly equivalent to a 12m inflatable kite which, unless it's made from Aluula, is a relatively slow kite, especially in 10 knots!

So if you've got a surf foil and your wind speed is often 6 to 10 knots, try a Peak4 8m, 11m or 13m. For the relatively low price I can guarantee it's the best bang for your buck you'll find until Armin and Flysurfer bring our something better :D
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby khaakon » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:06 pm

drsurf wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:30 pm
....
Very well put, drsurf! Post of the month I'd say !!
:thumb:

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Onda » Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:51 am

drsurf expressed exactly what my expectation is of the Peak4 in 8 m²!
However, I´m hoping that selling my loved 10 m² Naish Boxer was not a mistake ;-) The Peak shall replace it, with 1-2 kts better low end, hopefully.
One main consideration in terms of getting the 8 m² Peak was: When you´re out in say 8 kts of wind, the wind might very probably drop to e.g. 5 kts for a minute or two. Then, any LEI kite will drop into the water. While the Peak won´t. That´s another big upside for me.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby joriws » Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:51 am

drsurf wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:30 pm
So more wind = smaller P4's = more fun. And this applies to all kites regardless of type. You can get around the forces of friction with a more efficient design of kite like having double skins. However you then add weight of material plus the weight of the air trapped inside which = less manoeuvrability an high $$.
Small correction. Air mass trapped inside kite does not "weight" anything on surrounding air, or mass is added just by ram air pressure, so air trapped to kite is neutral buoyant in atmosphere. That is why closed cell foil kites are balanced and flies nicely in ULW, and can be flown also in zero wind by you moving and creating the required apparent wind almost by walking.

*But* accelerating that air mass is inertia, and sure the effect of inertia can be seen on light wind. *But* on the other hand, inertia is also like a *flywheel* (flywheel is a "inertia device" in the end) which help you on required force *impulse* to get on top of board from sitting in water and hopefully with same left over inertia you can accelerate hydrofoil to flying speed. Naturally Peak4 inertia is very low compared to like Sonic3 15m. Sonic can get the job done in low winds where Peak's physics starts to lack.

Then also kite L/D applies, higher L/D the more efficient kite-system (also bridles, lines etc) will be and have higher flying speed in the same lift-force produced, and with more inertial energy stored in moving system, which can be calculated in kinetic energy equation. So if Sonic3 15m due to higher L/D flies as fast as Peak4 13m, but has 8x more inertial mass on that same speed, it has linearly 8x more kinetic energy to be used on your take-off with hydrofoil.

Sure flying speed is more relevance due to square root of velocity, so always in ULW your goal is to get velocity up. Then comes inertial agility how you can turn you kite to keep the velocity up. So which kite-type is better in which wind is not linear system, but complex combination of parameters. But pair 15m closed cell Flysurfer with 4-6m line extensions and off you go in ridiculous winds.

I hope you got the "idea" of inertia vs kite clear enough as I am far from native English speaker/writer. Inertial mass is not a bad thing, it is sometimes the enabling thing.
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby borist » Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:20 am

Onda wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 6:51 am
drsurf expressed exactly what my expectation is of the Peak4 in 8 m²!
However, I´m hoping that selling my loved 10 m² Naish Boxer was not a mistake ;-) The Peak shall replace it, with 1-2 kts better low end, hopefully.
One main consideration in terms of getting the 8 m² Peak was: When you´re out in say 8 kts of wind, the wind might very probably drop to e.g. 5 kts for a minute or two. Then, any LEI kite will drop into the water. While the Peak won´t. That´s another big upside for me.
I think you'll be happy with Peak 4 (I was the one in the video trying 8m for the first time). I usually fly strutless LEI like Naish Trip and for me 8m Peak replaces Trip 12m (perhaps even Hyperlink 12m) when used with Armstrong HS1050 foil or similar. Ease of keeping this kite flying is ridiculous. It is a bit trickier to get going when wind is marginal as the power spike is softer.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby drsurf » Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:10 pm

joriws wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:51 am
drsurf wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:30 pm
So more wind = smaller P4's = more fun. And this applies to all kites regardless of type. You can get around the forces of friction with a more efficient design of kite like having double skins. However you then add weight of material plus the weight of the air trapped inside which = less manoeuvrability an high $$.
Small correction. Air mass trapped inside kite does not "weight" anything on surrounding air, or mass is added just by ram air pressure, so air trapped to kite is neutral buoyant in atmosphere. That is why closed cell foil kites are balanced and flies nicely in ULW, and can be flown also in zero wind by you moving and creating the required apparent wind almost by walking.

*But* accelerating that air mass is inertia, and sure the effect of inertia can be seen on light wind. *But* on the other hand, inertia is also like a *flywheel* (flywheel is a "inertia device" in the end) which help you on required force *impulse* to get on top of board from sitting in water and hopefully with same left over inertia you can accelerate hydrofoil to flying speed. Naturally Peak4 inertia is very low compared to like Sonic3 15m. Sonic can get the job done in low winds where Peak's physics starts to lack.

Then also kite L/D applies, higher L/D the more efficient kite-system (also bridles, lines etc) will be and have higher flying speed in the same lift-force produced, and with more inertial energy stored in moving system, which can be calculated in kinetic energy equation. So if Sonic3 15m due to higher L/D flies as fast as Peak4 13m, but has 8x more inertial mass on that same speed, it has linearly 8x more kinetic energy to be used on your take-off with hydrofoil.

Sure flying speed is more relevance due to square root of velocity, so always in ULW your goal is to get velocity up. Then comes inertial agility how you can turn you kite to keep the velocity up. So which kite-type is better in which wind is not linear system, but complex combination of parameters. But pair 15m closed cell Flysurfer with 4-6m line extensions and off you go in ridiculous winds.

I hope you got the "idea" of inertia vs kite clear enough as I am far from native English speaker/writer. Inertial mass is not a bad thing, it is sometimes the enabling thing.
:thumb:
Excellent explanation joriws. I had referred to weight when I should have referred to inertia.

As a non native English speaker/writer you write very well :D

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jumptheshark » Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:29 pm

Great discussion guys. After a season (70 sessions as of yesterday !!) on Peaks the lack of inertia has emerged as one of its greatest assets. I get that in describing it above, the traditional kiter viewpoint was that inertia is a plus more than a minus. That stored kinetic energy can be harvested in times of need: getting up and going or transitioning in lulls etc or just smoothing out turbulence. I think that on balance for certain types of riding, the lack of inertia ends up as an overall plus. Admittedly I am not into peaks to push the absolute low end on a hydrofoil. I'm into them to improve the fun factor. Subjective I know, but, agility is high on that design brief.

Was out in failing winds on the 5m last weekend. Wind bouncing between 8 and 12 knots. In 8, if I messed up, I was swimming, in 10 could get up with a couple loops and ride a fragile line, in 10.5, getting up was easy and could go directly into a little air or 360 or catch a piece of swell. No need to gain speed, no need to work to hold ground, no need to simply maintain like sessions of old. The inertialess agility of the Peaks makes them fun almost immediately upon having enough wind to get up and even transitions can be pulled of with raw kite power alone instead of planned out harvesting of inertia energy. I remember back on tubes, it was probably three knots between simply being able to ride, and actually horsing around out there. Inertia made it possible to dive the kite hard to spike power to get up, to coast through some of the lulls, and to have enough weight to throw the kite through a transition and have it make it all the way through. Makes it possible to ride, but there is little fun in the harvesting power through inertia range. It's all calculated riding simply to maintain. On the 5m Peak, the gap between simply maintaining and actually having fun throwing the kite around is only about half a knot because you don't have to rely on harvesting kinetic energy from inertia. Once its on, its ON.

So, there are two key set points. The actual power of the wind, and the trade off spot between agility and raw power production of the kite. Peaks bring those two points together to be a sure thing at 11 knots on the 5m. That is some crazy kite alchemy! There is not much we can do about wind power. Below 10 knots, you can get a bigger kite, but its an obvious sacrifice in agility and as a consequence fun. On LEI kites the trade off in kite size has always been around 9m. Anything bigger is a compromise on speed and agility, anything smaller on raw power. Tech improvements like Alula may improve this to a bigger benchmark by increasing agility in bigger tubes, but after spending time on Peaks, that seems like the wrong direction when the peak has brought the trade off size down to 5m, by improving raw power in an inherently quick and agile size. A similar sized close cell foil is more powerful than a Peak, but you are stuck in that low end business of storing and harvesting energy as inertia for a few knots.

In future generations of this kite concept, I don't really want a faster 8m, I much prefer a more powerful/efficient 5.

At the edges of the spectrum both top end and bottom end, there are better options than single skin. The efficiency of a close cell racing foil complete with inertia is helpful to get up and going and keep the ball rolling. At the top end, even though the 3m peak is manageable, over 30 knots and it looses some of its friendliness especially when the wind is turbulent.

The Peak concept is best at maximizing the fun factor more so than the absolute range with limitations on both absolute top and bottom end. As impressive as that last man standing video is, I have yet to see a clip of the 8m peak that looks like fun. No doubt you get a lower bottom end, but it all looks like the 5m feels in 10 knots. In the end, I have come to the realization that its wind power that limits my personal bottom end, as on the kite side the fun factor is already there.
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