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Flysurfer Peak 4

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jespin4845
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jespin4845 » Sun Mar 21, 2021 12:47 am

Foil_Adict wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:51 pm
Any other peak 4 wave foilers out there that are trying the wing foil? While it’s fun to try a new sport I am finding myself pessimistic that the wing foil will ever be better for wave foiling then my peak. I am still riding a relatively large board though so may a smaller board will help but that still feels a long way off. My p4 5m has way better low end then my 5m fone swing wing. I have recently upgraded to an Armstrong 1250 and I can kite with that foil in 10mph. The 5m wing needs 15 to 20 to get going. And the peak goes up wind so much better. It normal for me to ride a mile or two upwind and make my own downwinders on the peak. Can’t imagine ever doing that on a wing. Need to do the whole vehicle drop circus with a wing.

And that’s honestly not even to most discouraging aspect as I knew that was the case going into this and never planned to switch, just and another option for wave riding and downwinders. Well I finally got out on a good down winder in the ocean with the wing and my mind was far from blown. The wing just gets in the way when riding down wind. When you get in the swell and take off down wind it just flips around and gets in the way awkwardly.

I do have to give some thought to how I line tension and position my peak when riding swell downwind but it never feels in the way.

What are my other p4 riders thoughts? I think a lot of the hype for wave riding on a foil should be still given to the peaks. They really are hard to beat.
I tried winging once and was awful at it, but every time I see a really good winger I think “I can do that on my peak” so have yet to want to invest time into it

And the thought of riding a bigger board than my pocket board is lame to me

I don’t really talk about it at the beach to seem arrogant, but I think the peak can do the same amount of wave riding a wing can do without engaging the kite

Especially with a large foil
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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby jumptheshark » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:05 am

absafuckinglooootly!

That video was filmed an hour from my place. Have shared the spot with a half dozen of likely the same guys in bigger conditions and that is pretty much what it looks like to me. No doubt decent riders able to get up and going in short order, cruise upwind and ride swell back down. A few jumps, some landed. I have no doubt by the look on their faces they are all stoked. They just don't know any better.

Even done well, they take 5 times as long to get on foil with 8 times the effort. They point 10-15 degrees lower and ride swell straight downwind in broad arcs that can't really be called carving. Not unlike the lines 10-11" longboards would ride in steeper waves. Airs generally result in a full stop.

Dexterity alone is more than enough reason to stick with a kite..... any kite, let alone a Peak4. All this emphasis on being able to ride straight downwind on swell is kinda weird. Wingers are pretty much restricted to it. They have to point straight downwind and turn slow as not to bleed too much speed and need to reposition/engage the soft power of the wing to stay on foil. No thanks! Much prefer down the line. Where a Peak easily affords straight down swell angles, who actually wants that? Much rather tap into their ability to channel a shortboard style. Pace, turn radius, athleticism and general aesthetic is much more what I'm after.

Everyone loves the sex appeal of a nice little shortboard, but truth is we rarely get conditions that actually warrant kiting one. A foil looks a kookier piece of kit, but stripped of bulk and powered by a Peak4 they deliver on the promise little surfboards make. Rail to rail as hard and fast as your skills allow.

Even the top great lakes wingers compared to someone on a faster smaller foil/board and Peak is as drastic as horse and buggy to nitrous for power delivery and truck towing a camper to street bikes for dexterity.

It's all so obvious I generally ride longer up and downwind circuits as not to rub their noses in it by spending too much time around them and simply whoop it up as I head on through while suppressing the urge to use them as pilons.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Foil_Adict » Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:56 am

Definitely expected I was not alone with still loving the p4. Still enjoying the wing as it does have a certain appeal still just don’t know if it would ever be as fun as my peak. Having said that finally had a perfect side off down winder with head high swell on the surfboard. Honestly there really isn’t anything better, even on my clunky SST 6m

One nice thing about the wing is how safe and approachable it is. I just gave it to my daughter to play with at the beach with her friend. No worries about safety.

Wondering if any p4 riders will chime in to say they love both sports for waves

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Flyboy » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:06 am

jumptheshark wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 2:05 am
absafuckinglooootly!

That video was filmed an hour from my place. Have shared the spot with a half dozen of likely the same guys in bigger conditions and that is pretty much what it looks like to me. No doubt decent riders able to get up and going in short order, cruise upwind and ride swell back down. A few jumps, some landed. I have no doubt by the look on their faces they are all stoked. They just don't know any better.

Even done well, they take 5 times as long to get on foil with 8 times the effort. They point 10-15 degrees lower and ride swell straight downwind in broad arcs that can't really be called carving. Not unlike the lines 10-11" longboards would ride in steeper waves. Airs generally result in a full stop.

Dexterity alone is more than enough reason to stick with a kite..... any kite, let alone a Peak4. All this emphasis on being able to ride straight downwind on swell is kinda weird. Wingers are pretty much restricted to it. They have to point straight downwind and turn slow as not to bleed too much speed and need to reposition/engage the soft power of the wing to stay on foil. No thanks! Much prefer down the line. Where a Peak easily affords straight down swell angles, who actually wants that? Much rather tap into their ability to channel a shortboard style. Pace, turn radius, athleticism and general aesthetic is much more what I'm after.

Everyone loves the sex appeal of a nice little shortboard, but truth is we rarely get conditions that actually warrant kiting one. A foil looks a kookier piece of kit, but stripped of bulk and powered by a Peak4 they deliver on the promise little surfboards make. Rail to rail as hard and fast as your skills allow.

Even the top great lakes wingers compared to someone on a faster smaller foil/board and Peak is as drastic as horse and buggy to nitrous for power delivery and truck towing a camper to street bikes for dexterity.

It's all so obvious I generally ride longer up and downwind circuits as not to rub their noses in it by spending too much time around them and simply whoop it up as I head on through while suppressing the urge to use them as pilons.
Yeah, but on the other hand looking at this video (which I've posted before): the kid is so skilled, so relaxed, rocking a small board (with a long mast & small wing), in strong wind & big open water swell - I can see the point. I think he's got a degree of immediate control over the power from the wing that would be hard to achieve with a kite in those conditions.


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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby lezo » Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:07 am

Foil_Adict wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:51 pm
Any other peak 4 wave foilers out there that are trying the wing foil? While it’s fun to try a new sport I am finding myself pessimistic that the wing foil will ever be better for wave foiling then my peak. I am still riding a relatively large board though so may a smaller board will help but that still feels a long way off. My p4 5m has way better low end then my 5m fone swing wing. I have recently upgraded to an Armstrong 1250 and I can kite with that foil in 10mph. The 5m wing needs 15 to 20 to get going. And the peak goes up wind so much better. It normal for me to ride a mile or two upwind and make my own downwinders on the peak. Can’t imagine ever doing that on a wing. Need to do the whole vehicle drop circus with a wing.

And that’s honestly not even to most discouraging aspect as I knew that was the case going into this and never planned to switch, just and another option for wave riding and downwinders. Well I finally got out on a good down winder in the ocean with the wing and my mind was far from blown. The wing just gets in the way when riding down wind. When you get in the swell and take off down wind it just flips around and gets in the way awkwardly.

I do have to give some thought to how I line tension and position my peak when riding swell downwind but it never feels in the way.

What are my other p4 riders thoughts? I think a lot of the hype for wave riding on a foil should be still given to the peaks. They really are hard to beat.
Hey, I had my very first wing session yesterday, with a 5m Swing. I guess that mostly due to the ideal conditions, good advices from friends and some experience accumulated lately in surffoiling with my Peak4, I was cruising in 1h, hit the first swell in 2h at the entry of the Corralejo Bay and almost completed my foiling jibes when I had to give back the rented equipment in the evening.

Thats on a 1740 front wing and a 140l 6'6 board, so easy when you are used to much smaller equipment. And indeed, here is the problem: even the best wingers around, typically lighter than me, are on 1000 frontwings, so I guess it would take a very long learning time to be able to use my beloved 800 surffoiling frontwing. And waterstarting with small wing equipment in lighter winds does not look like much fun to me.. Three days ago I shared the wave with one of the most advanced wingers here when the wind dropped, he had to swim out from the reef while I looped my way back on the foil with the Peak.

The Peak4 is so great for swell foiling, neutral with instant access to power when needed. Until now I had only my 8m originally bought for snowkiting, can't wait the 5m ordered to arrive to the island where I live this winter (mostly aiming to surfkite with a surfboard when the conditions are there). So while I still want to complete jibe knowledge with the wing, I'm not overwhelmed. I see myself winging in the future maybe on hard to access lakes, frequents near to my homes back on the continent.

But I still have to figure out how to surf upwind in side conditions with the Peak4, as my winger friends do..

(Funny anecdote, our beloved brand did last month photo sessions here for their upcoming wing, the Mojo, while I was wavefoiling around them with the Peak4. And this was at Flag Beach, where Armin made the first presentation video of the Peak4 3 years ago..)

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby drsurf » Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:13 pm

Having flown my Peak4 & surf foil alongside wing foilers ... I'll take the Peak4 any day :D
Much better in light wind, much more efficient and my tiny 2kg board against a 6 -10kg lump ... I can surf waves downwind with ease and have full 360° vision so I can cut back and forth and see any wingdingers, kiters etc.
I think if wing foilers who could kite foil tried a Peak4 they may have a different perspective. I have tried to give one wing foiler who could kite foil a go on the Peak4 but there was a real reticence, as if he didn't want to find something better??

Wings are good if you need a bit of exercise though, carrying it all to the beach, pumping it up, fighting your way through the shore break, untangling leashes, pumping like a maniac when the wind dies and carrying it all back :)

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Horst Sergio » Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:10 pm

Thanks Foil_Adict for successfully starting the

Wing foiling vs. Peak4 foiling in swell discussion :thumb: in here
I already placed a link in the link collection: https://kj4l.com/?p=418

I already named it a few times but didn't want to go deeper, till I haven't enough experience with wings in waves, but it seems many feel quite the same, so:
Actually I ride wings since 1,7 years, ca. 100 sessions, had time where I nearly dropped it, then where I was thinking to drop kiting in the future, actually I ordered my third range of wings (Slicks) and two new boards and just will wait till end of this year to find a new opinion :) , but most likely keeping wings and kites in the next years. :D

The last sessions I also started to compare Peak4 and Wings a lot 1:1, as actually neraly always riding my 50 l board with a fast 1000 cm² Monofoil for both Wing and Peak4.
Most sessions have been: Riding the 6 m² Peak4 from 7 - 14 knts and if wind goes above switching to my 5,2 m² Wing (since 15 sessions a preseries with straps not boom) which works pretty well togehter, have been riding this wing already in gusts much over 30 knts, easily.

First I am very happy that I have started winging very early, even if it has cost me a lot by always changing to the latest wing models. But the best what winging learned me till today is, that biggest part of freedom of the wing comes from being unhooked, which I imediately in 2019 after the first wing sessions adepted to my Peak4 flying, especially in swell. So all the folowing is always comparison:

Wing vs. Peak4 unhooked and short lines:

(Perspective where Peak4 shines above Wing for me, ridding most time without too much swell in around 10 km large lakes)

+ travelling size of material, no pump
+ getting out in onshore conditions with long stone beach and, or breaking waves
+ starting in lower winds just by bending the one hands wrist, holding the kite unhooked, to perform a kite loop instead of the time consuming effort to knee start and pump start a wing
+ especially unhooked having never and absolute nothing in front of your view
+ riding boards that have much much smaller swing weight (110 cm x 2,5 kg vs.150 cm x 4,5 kg)
+ even if riding the same board manouverabilty is better, as no time lost to search and grab another wing handle but mostly holding kite one hand and worst case switching bar from one to the other hand.
+ ability to ride in very small dirty swell with fun, when there is not enogh condition quality to ride with the wing one wave draging the wing behind

0 Range, not sure about yet, Peak4 can be pretty good if you just ride it upwind (powered without shaking) and downwind, but also Wings ranges get more and more impressive

- getting out at spots with 0-6 knts on the first > 200 m (possible with Peak4 swimming but more motivated with a wing)
- jumping freestyle (started full foiling raileys with the wing, with the Peak4 just not had the balls to do any serious raileys yet)
- some manouvers as wide downwind 360s work similar as on the kite, but are somehow much more easy and fun on the wing, maybe as being more compact and absolute no risk to ride in your own lines :wink:
- excitement to follow the development of a new sport from first serial product, that will become huge anyway, with or without me

So actually to me clear who wins, but lets wait until people start to more and more go riding swell on foils in the best case with Peak4 unhooked on short lines, and aswell have serious experience with wing and big swell, which I haven't had till now, hoping for summer. :D

But I am sure the experience of some lucky guys living in places with all day perfect swell may differ and here the wings shines more but most, just don't have those conditions like me.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Foil_Adict » Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:39 pm

Thank you for weighing in Horst. We all owe you a debt of gratitude for getting the single skin/peak 4 craze going. Good to hear you are enjoying both sports still. I hope to drop to riding my prone foil board with the wing soon. I think one of the biggest drawbacks for me right now with the wing is the 95l board I am riding. Just feels so far away, I keep trying but I loose my patience and switch back to the big board.

To me the drive to learn a new foiling sport still outweighs the drawbacks. I am still struggling to learn to prone too but that’s a different game all together.

Hear is the current break down for me
Wing
Positives
Easy launch from for spots with no beach, can drift launch my peak but it’s tricky

Safe and easy to teach others

New sport so fun climbing the skill ladder


Negatives
Needs more wind or a larger foil for the same conditions I would ride the peak

Can drift downwind but the wing is cumbersome and just gets in the way

Leashes, oh god the leashes!!!

Gear is huge

Have to pump again, don’t miss that

Impossible to get through shore break on a wing. Already shredded one wing.

Knee starts are awful, reminds me of up hauling days before i could water start my sailboard



If I was still riding inflatable kites I would probably be more wowed by the drift and downwind possibilities but the peak is still the champ for me in downwind. Most guys here are still riding inflatables. I think the lack of relaunch is just a show stopper for them.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby Trent hink » Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:20 am

Since we are getting way off topic now, I add this:

First, wing foilers have the potential to go just as fast as a kite foil, but to do so requires a smaller foil than what beginner wing foilers use, and more wind, and probably a smaller board. I have seen this first-hand, so I know it is true.

Second, the sport of wing foiling is in its infancy. Take a look at the recent thread here on "why hydrofoils should be banned from crowded surf zones" and pay particular attention to the video on page 2, "skiers vs snowboarders".

According to the reporter, that video was filmed when the sport was already 10 years old. Just take a moment to watch it and see how silly the gear is at that point in that sport’s development.

I've gotten the chance to briefly try winging, just to the point of getting up and flying. It is fun, and a good workout, and it has the potential to be really fun once the gear gets developed. Even now, I see guys using the same wing (and board and foil) from 15-25 knots.


As a matter of fact, most of the really good wingers here locally came from a good bit of kite foiling experience and were using the peak 4 or firefly prior to getting into winging.

So winging is a cool sport. If I had the money and space and time I would totally get into it. There exists a range of conditions/locations, where winging is an an option and kiting is really not, and vice versa.

Anyway, I gave up windsurfing for kiting about 20 years ago. Sometimes, in some conditions, I still look back.

Just today, I went out on my 5 meter peak, then, when the wind picked up, I came in and got the 4, then I came in and rigged the 3 and had a total blast on it.

Some of my friends were out winging, and I noticed that they never seemed to have a need to come in for a different rig.

Me, I’ll stick to kiting ‘till I get bored with it. Even now I consider myself only marginally competent.

My advice is, just don’t end up like the ski-patroller in that old video.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak 4

Postby bragnouff » Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:22 am

drsurf wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 3:13 pm
Having flown my Peak4 & surf foil alongside wing foilers ... I'll take the Peak4 any day :D
That's the core of the dilemma, Wings (can) shine in conditions where kiting isn't an option. Sure the Peak4's ability to stay in the air in sketchy winds extends the conditions of what is seen as kitable, but it's still a kite, there's a limit when it's too gusty and shifty and severe long lasting lulls and your session is horribly stressful as it goes tits up pretty quickly. Whereas it can be a more relaxed sitting on the board till it comes back again, or little paddle to cleaner wind/ shore, etc...
We kind of agree that in conditions where you can choose to kitefoil or wingfoil, then the kite will have the advantage. Even more so with a Peak.
Saying so, I still go out at times and practice my skills on a friendly spot, where I could equally kitefoil, or even ride a TT, and I'm very conscious of the inferiority of my sailing craft in terms of performances. Yet, I make that choice for novelty, for learning new things and preparing for the tougher conditions, for the social aspect of things (sit down, chill and cheer your mates jibing around you), and also because I have done kite sessions beforehand so I'm not feeling like I'm missing out on that day. It's still good flying fun, extra time on the water, a certain freedom of movement and in the end a valid fun weapon in the waterman quiver. Now the hard question: Does it make sense financially?
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