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Light wind foil kite for foiling

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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:01 pm

Adventure Logs wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:59 pm
I recommend playing around with shorter lines starting around like 15m. This will speed up the kite and make it react faster. It's easy to do yourself, there's some good how-to's on youtube on how to splice them.
I would say the opposite : you do not need to increase the high speed of the sonic for lightest wind, you need a more powerful loop and more grunt at low speed, and longer pull duration, i.e. get longer lines.

Now about a kite with better low end than Sonic2 , here is my opinion:
- I tried or owed the following kites: conceptair Pulsion, Kitech FRS, Sonic 2, Speed4 Lotus, Pansh A15 and Aurora v2 , Elf J5 ; and I discussed a lot with friends seeking for low end with a Pulsion and having compared with Hyperlink, PL Aero, Soul

- a medium ratio kite will ease the waterstart and the keeping the kite in the air (Pulsion, Hyperlink, Soul, FRS, A15, Aurora, speed4), which are often the two more difficult steps in extreme light wind; e.g. this is the main reason why the Soul is better than the Sonic 2 in extrem light

- the lightest , the best ; sonic Fr was a hammer with a poor low end -> Sonic 2 is improved -> but R1V2 remains better (like PL Aero V1); Soul is improved vs Sonic2, but not the best; FRS is a bit heavy so less usable than Soul , Hyperlink standard is also a bit heavy ; Conceptair Pulsion beat them all and currently the winner on the weight and on its ability to stay in the air with or without working the kite (confirmed by all users I know and that were able to compare with Soul, Sonic2 , Aero, Hyperlink or FRS) ; FRS is less stable at the zenith and needs a bit of line tension/working compared to Pulsion. A15 is very stable ; Soul not tested on this point.

- another point is the agility and power during the loop for the waterstart; on this point FRS is worse than others with a lack of power during the loop (but excellent depower and agility even with slack lines, but not powerful) ; Soul is better but not the best, a little lack of agility unfortunatelly ; A15 has a (too) large loop but quite powerful; Conceptair Pulsion has a bit of delay between the pilot command and the loop, but when you know this, turns quick and smooth and gives you tons of power when crossing the window (so the best IMO for the waterstart and working the kite)

- relaunch : from my experiments I would not say one is really above others, they have pro and cons : Soul and FRS are very watertight so can stay in the water for a long time ; Souls relaunches with a bit less wind ; Hyperlink is in-between these two ; Pulsion is less watertight so more sensitive to pilot error during the relaunch or if the lulls duration exceeds 5 minutes ; BUT it relaunches easy and in less winds than all others in the firsts minutes (which maybe crutial).

- high end : FRS has an excelent depower vs Pulsion (actually its windragne is relocated in higher winds), Soul is in-between

- robustness : FRS and Soul seem very godd, Pulsion seems more fragile on intercells in case of crashes.

- drift (important for waves or transition in very light wind ) : 1- Pulsion, 2- A15 and Soul and HL, 3- FRS

Open to gentle comments of course !
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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby Adventure Logs » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:27 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:01 pm
Adventure Logs wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:59 pm
I recommend playing around with shorter lines starting around like 15m. This will speed up the kite and make it react faster. It's easy to do yourself, there's some good how-to's on youtube on how to splice them.
I would say the opposite : you do not need to increase the high speed of the sonic for lightest wind, you need a more powerful loop and more grunt at low speed, and longer pull duration, i.e. get longer lines.
The reason I suggested the shorter lines was because his biggest complaint was the slow turning speed. He said he's on a large hydrofoil wing and someone mentioned the Onda so the 13 should be more than enough kite for him which is why he could go shorter lines and not really lose any bottom end. This in turn though will speed the kite up and allow the sonic build more apparent wind/power. But really on a slow hydrofoil wing, the Sonic isn't the best choice.

I've been told that Kitech will soon be building the FRS in the next fabric from Flysurfer which will solve the weight and airtight issues. They don't seem to age that will from what I've seen on the water, they tend to loose their airtightness pretty quickly. The Soul is too new still to see how it ages but I can personally attest that I've used my 15m VERY hard and have close to 200 hours on it and have had no complaints.

It will be interesting to see how V2 of the hyperlink will bring us. If Ozone fixes a couple of the issues, it could turn out to be a nice kite. I'm considering trying one out in the smaller size since Flysurfer doesn't make anything smaller than a 6m and that would be too much overlap with my 8m. If not, I will most likely get a Pulsion in around 4m.

I still think on a fast wing and the right rider, the Sonic2 would beat the Soul on the low end but the ease and stability you get with the Soul especially with that relaunch makes it a better light wind kite. My 8m has basically become my one kite quiver mostly due to that powerful loop. Down in Miami I'm usually riding the smallest kite even among the hydrofoilers.

=Jason-

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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby slowboat » Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:28 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:01 pm
Adventure Logs wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:59 pm
I recommend playing around with shorter lines starting around like 15m. This will speed up the kite and make it react faster. It's easy to do yourself, there's some good how-to's on youtube on how to splice them.
I would say the opposite : you do not need to increase the high speed of the sonic for lightest wind, you need a more powerful loop and more grunt at low speed, and longer pull duration, i.e. get longer lines.

Now about a kite with better low end than Sonic2 , here is my opinion:
- I tried or owed the following kites: conceptair Pulsion, Kitech FRS, Sonic 2, Speed4 Lotus, Pansh A15 and Aurora v2 , Elf J5 ; and I discussed a lot with friends seeking for low end with a Pulsion and having compared with Hyperlink, PL Aero, Soul

- a medium ratio kite will ease the waterstart and the keeping the kite in the air (Pulsion, Hyperlink, Soul, FRS, A15, Aurora, speed4), which are often the two more difficult steps in extreme light wind; e.g. this is the main reason why the Soul is better than the Sonic 2 in extrem light

- the lightest , the best ; sonic Fr was a hammer with a poor low end -> Sonic 2 is improved -> but R1V2 remains better (like PL Aero V1); Soul is improved vs Sonic2, but not the best; FRS is a bit heavy so less usable than Soul , Hyperlink standard is also a bit heavy ; Conceptair Pulsion beat them all and currently the winner on the weight and on its ability to stay in the air with or without working the kite (confirmed by all users I know and that were able to compare with Soul, Sonic2 , Aero, Hyperlink or FRS) ; FRS is less stable at the zenith and needs a bit of line tension/working compared to Pulsion. A15 is very stable ; Soul not tested on this point.

- another point is the agility and power during the loop for the waterstart; on this point FRS is worse than others with a lack of power during the loop (but excellent depower and agility even with slack lines, but not powerful) ; Soul is better but not the best, a little lack of agility unfortunatelly ; A15 has a (too) large loop but quite powerful; Conceptair Pulsion has a bit of delay between the pilot command and the loop, but when you know this, turns quick and smooth and gives you tons of power when crossing the window (so the best IMO for the waterstart and working the kite)

- relaunch : from my experiments I would not say one is really above others, they have pro and cons : Soul and FRS are very watertight so can stay in the water for a long time ; Souls relaunches with a bit less wind ; Hyperlink is in-between these two ; Pulsion is less watertight so more sensitive to pilot error during the relaunch or if the lulls duration exceeds 5 minutes ; BUT it relaunches easy and in less winds than all others in the firsts minutes (which maybe crutial).

- high end : FRS has an excelent depower vs Pulsion (actually its windragne is relocated in higher winds), Soul is in-between

- robustness : FRS and Soul seem very godd, Pulsion seems more fragile on intercells in case of crashes.

- drift (important for waves or transition in very light wind ) : 1- Pulsion, 2- A15 and Soul and HL, 3- FRS

Open to gentle comments of course !
I would put a lot of weight on Regis-de-giens comments. He truly spends a lot of time in very light conditions and is very thoughtful, honest and unbiased. FYI: I do not know him personally.

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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby TomW » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:03 pm

Adventure Logs wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:59 pm
TomW wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:17 pm
Ok, last mid season I bought a used Flysurfer Sonic 2 13m to complement my Hyperlink 9m UL.
I've flown it 10 times and it's a good kite in wind range compared to the Hyperlink. I've had some great light wind sessions on it on a big hydrofoiling wing.

But now I'm wondering if there is a less extreme ( less racy) foil kite that I could pick up used and it would be easier to handle.
Mainly my only issue is that it's extremely slow to turn. I'm on 20m lines and 60cm bar.

I'm looking to switch out used for used...
First off, have you done a bar check to make sure your lines are all equal length when trimmed for full power with the bar sheeted in? I wouldn't say that the Sonic2 is a slow turning kite, it just turns differently. There is a slight delay which takes time to get use to the timing but it isn't as active as the Soul. A reason why I wouldn't recommend the R1 even though it's been reported easier than the Sonic to handle, the relaunch is quite poor. When you are at the very low end winds, that's going to be really important. If you can find a used Soul, that would be a good choice. Also someone suggested a Pulsion which would be another good choice but I'm unsure how good the relaunch is. I've spent the last couple months down in Miami and the local guys there are really big on the Kitechs which look like another good choice. Only problem is the wait time can be a little longer to get but they're pretty good priced even new. Also they are suppose to be starting to build them in the same cloth as the Soul. Matrixx has a new freeride foil out as well which looks nice but again the relaunch is going to suffer.

What lines are you on with the Sonic2 13m? Since you have a big hydrofoil wing, you really don't need the stock line length. Before you switch kites out, I recommend playing around with shorter lines starting around like 15m. This will speed up the kite and make it react faster. It's easy to do yourself, there's some good how-to's on youtube on how to splice them.
Thanks for the tips AL. Yes the bar is trimmed right- its a brand new home made carbon bar with 20m lines and trim system. I´ve checked the mixer and it needed adjustments.
I´ll try shortening the lines by 2M at a time. I can splice them myself.

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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby plummet » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:52 am

All 12m foil kites will be slow by comparison to smaller lei's. If you change out to another unit it might be marginally faster and more suited to your riding. But it will still be a slow grunty foil kite.

The issue here is not the kite. It's the operator not used to flying such a beast. Spend some time learning how to fly it. Turn earlier, Downloop rather than upturn, cant over on the board more, Drive upwind harder. Prepare for the additional lift, speed, upwind and entrained power. I think the entrained lift and power a foil kite creates is far different to lei's. The lei pilot is not used to this at all. Drink it in, Adjust your style and embrace the power. Do one of my back drags while your cranking upwind at ridiculous speed and upwind angle. Adjust your expectation for how you ride. It wont be the same session as an 8m lei. It's a different sensation and a different session.

Even I have to recalibrate to the big foil after riding the 8m for many sessions and I have been flying foil kites since I started in 2004.

Check out below. Its a video I did 7 years ago on transition slides for landboards. Disregard the landboarding and concentrate on the kite turning. Notice how i instigate the turn early and hold a bar pull and arc around the turn.
Aim to do that while foiling. I find downlooping is actually easier and more seamless the upturning.



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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby socommk23 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:04 am

I only learnt to foil last summer. No transitions so far. But I learnt using my fone diablo 15m, then bought a 18m and this has had me up and going on my home built foil in 6 to 8 knots of wind. On long lines it'll back loop to get me up n going no issues.

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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby TomW » Sat Jan 19, 2019 3:06 pm

Today I was out in 7-10 knots on the Sonic 2 13m. 2-4c air temp. On 105cm board and Moses 633 wing. Strapless
It was good session once I got out beyond the 3 sand reefs, in onshore wind...
I can do flying gybe and footswitch and keep power in the kite doing flying gybes. No problems.
But what I really suck at is water starts. I've not figured it out really. I need to learn how to loop the kite or backstall trick. And I keep choking the kite trying to get up.
Anyone have good video of this?

A friend was on his new Soul 12. Somehow he dropped it and had to swim in with tangled mess .he's had one overpowered session and this one, said " I'm not convinced yet".

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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby tomtom » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:39 pm

I personaly dont believe in loops. Sine down from opposite edge right in front of you and then gradual upstroke. If you have problem on ONDA with sonic 2 13 on 7-10 then there must be something wrong. I actualy consider sonic 2 11 powerstroke too much for onda in anything above 8 knots - at 89 kg naked.
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Regis-de-giens
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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:10 pm

Im my experience the adding value of the loop depends on kite design and specially Aspect ratio.
- Race kites like sonic fly rapidly in Straight line but loose their flying capacities in loop. => so loop does not bring more boost that straight line (starting from 11 o'clock or from full backstall in plain window) .

- Oppositelly a lower AR like Soul or Pulsion or HL ( or next promissing Nova ,Peter lynn) will fly relatively lower in straight line (hence less power) but turn smoother so higher power in loops.

To me the best loop result is one loop by pulling on future front hand then get up the board at the end of the loop, and then directly launch another loop by pull on the other (back) hand to accelerate. And your lines will not tangle in the end.
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Light wind foil kite for foiling

Postby kitexpert » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:16 pm

Race kites lose power during loop if steered too heavy handed. Then loop is backstall loop or even heli loop in which other side of the kite actually flies backwards. But if loop is flied with large radius high AR kites give a lot of power.

Mid AR kites have less variable power generation. There is a bit more base grunt and at the same time still decent power during the loop. They don't need as precise bar control than high AR kites, it is harder to backstall them by over steering.

So far single skin kites have sucked in looping power, but I don't know how much improved new Peak is in that respect.

LEI's have wide variety of loop power. Some have it quite a lot (C-kites, C-hybrids), some not much at all (wave kites, beginner deltas). Most seasoned kiters I know prefer kites which give power when flied, so do I.

I use loop start regularly because it gives nice boost to start which is fun way to get going. Also loops in turns both jibes and tacks and of course in low winds are necessary, or I'd say mandatory if wind is very low. I don't know why many kiters use looping so rarely, I know many who never loop their kites :o
Last edited by kitexpert on Sun Jan 20, 2019 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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