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Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

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kitexpert
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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby kitexpert » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:27 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:59 pm
Flysurfer has a good design ethic not to release a product they deem not ready.

I was thinking, if the Peak simply closed its tip cells, would that be enough of an improvement to relaunch? The tips are long enough for a long sock, which would reduce water ingress. I think watching Horgio's vid that relaunching is greatly affected by water in the tips.

They don't need to use a full size intake either. A quite small one should work. Say with the sock on one cell wall. It would be easy enough to modify a Peak 4 to test it.
If ribs (cell walls) are to be having vents simple overlapping flap type vent is usable, but pressure will be lower than with a normal air intake at stagnation point.

Closed tip cells will not be enough for (good) relaunch, center of the kite will still collapse and partly rigid wingtips may cause only problems (bowties).

I think I know what is logical development to closed LE single skin kite but I don't know if I have enough motivation to make it reality.

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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby jatem » Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:35 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:01 pm
Thanks for the translation, i am a bit short in time this week. I can re-translate one or two sentences if automatic translation is not clear
Does technical refer to bar pressure required, or turning speed?
...
The Marabou seems less technical than the Peak, easier to drive, it overhangs less and it is therefore easier to keep power during the loop to get out of the water.
...
In its really low range, you can play with the swell trains, the wing moves back without flinching but remains technical. This technical side is an asset to play/pilot but can become a problem for a beginner foileur (my opinion).

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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:21 am

Technical refers to the fact that you need an active driving of the kite in this phase (i.e. downwind waves in low end); i can ask Bozzo more details, but to me this means that you can't just let go the bar without piloting.

When he states an almost équivalent power as 8.5, he speaks of Conceptair CA Wave 8.5.

In the next message he says that instant depower is better than CA Pulsion but not as good as CA waves.

About the conclusion, let me rephrase since auto-traduction is not wonderful IMO :

I found-out that the kite was well-developed, easy and interesting regarding its piloting. It confirms my first feeling in Carro (kitesurf spot, with Wave 8.5 VS Peak 5), in waves in low end fun is great, where my 8.5 Wave (1.4kg) reaches its limit , these single skins in small sizes provide fun.

Yesterday a Conceptair Pulsion 8S or 9 would have ride with far more speed and upwind angle to
Gin Marabou 6 (or even 9?) But in small swell and so low wind, single skins (he tested Marabou and peak4) are the best to get fun.

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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby Strekke » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:14 am

So the guys that have flown it, recommend it for foiling in waves in low low wind? So it stays in the air and drifts nicely when riding towards it with slack lines?

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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby tomtom » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:01 am

Without understanding French /very bold from me/ I think what they want to say with less technical is that Marabou has still some rest pull /power background/ and its not so easy to back stall. Especially smaller peaks can be without any rest pull and very easy to back stall little bit "advanced" to fly. So Peak can be technical when you need power especially HF water starts. But in regard "you need an active driving of the kite in this phase (i.e. downwind waves in low end)" this is actually where peaks shine - here is least technical kite of all. It requires no input at all. In fact if somebody learn kite on Peaks he will be unable to kite with other kites which requires to be actively flown from unstable situations and positions. /front stall, slack lines out of WW etc.../

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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby foilholio » Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:24 pm

My very limited experience with Peak is you can slack line it but it tends to also like foil positioning. One benefit is if it collapses it opens quick and of course light weight. You will miss hot air effect and from what others are saying is single skins tend not to slack line. Which makes sense because they sit deep. I am cautious of them as I like slack line and it seems so many are confused what that means and what true slack line is possible. True slackline is basically no kite is felt in pull and no kite input is really possible with the bar ... amazingly because... the lines are slack. :roll:
kitexpert wrote: If ribs (cell walls) are to be having vents simple overlapping flap type vent is usable, but pressure will be lower than with a normal air intake at stagnation point.
There is no reason that they cant have restriction to the high pressure point. The intention of attaching to just the wall is one give an anchor for the sock so it doesn't sit at the LE allowing water in and two reduce weight by allowing a thinner sock.
kitexpert wrote:Closed tip cells will not be enough for (good) relaunch
Really? You tested this? Or are you as seemingly usual just talking out of your ass. The Peak4 seems to have significantly improved water relaunch, I would think the tips have something to do with it.
kitexpert wrote:center of the kite will still collapse
Happens on ... existing foils
kitexpert wrote: partly rigid wingtips may cause only problems (bowties).
Existing foils bowtie, yep there is potential, but what is that? How can you assume it is not worth it? How much testing have you done? Waves? Slack lines? Collapsing 100's or 1000's of times? Videoed results? Double blind? Or... the usual?
kitexpert wrote: I think I know what is logical development to closed LE single skin kite but I don't know if I have enough motivation to make it reality.
Yep the usual, you could do it but wait for it you haven't. Same criticisms you level against most kites. I think you design tube kites and wouldn't have a hope in hell of designing a competitive foil kite.

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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby kitexpert » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:21 pm

I've never tested any Peaks on the water but I've used them on snow (V's 1,2,4). For that experience I had absolutely no interest to try them on the water even though relaunch can be possible. More likely it is not possible - and why should I risk it when I have plenty of other kites which are designed for water use and are also floating devices with considerable buoyancy and realistic self rescue if something really goes wrong? BTW, I happened to witness one 6m Peak try on the water, it didn't end up well. Kiter lost control in a gust or something and was thrown to the beach, over quite large stones. He had some cuts and bruises and to describe how violent it was his foot came through his boot. Kite ended up in a tree. With bad luck he easily might have died. So personally I don't recommend using Peaks in high end of the wind range because they become quite twitchy, power is too much on-off and there is a lot of it.

All normal single skin kites collapse when steered to the ground and that is a good thing because it makes handling of them so easy: when you want to take a break just drive your kite to the ground and let it collapse there. Nothing can be easier, kite will stay there (in weak to moderate winds which are ss territory) waiting for you to relaunch it. But good luck to do same on the water :)

Arc kites have sticks on the wingtips so they are rigid. If there is not enough pre-inflation solid wingtips and soft center of the kite will cause problems. Soft and stiff parts in a same structure just don't mix well, there is not enough continuity.

Actually I have now several interesting developments, I'm struggling a bit which way to choose. A bit paradoxically best Peak so far, v4, showed me how far concept still is from good LEI or foil kite performance (L/D, boosting, feel etc.) so it was a bit turn-off for me for single skins.. So I guess it is high performance mid AR foil kite next, it is also much less risky try than some weird single skin hybrid.

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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby jatem » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:20 pm

Kitexpert, what style of riding are you into, twin tip or maybe you're boosting 20m on a hf?
Maximising L/D for upwind and boosting aren't necessarily going to be high on the list for people getting into foiling. Stability in gusts and lulls, drift, responsive turning, and easy launch/landing are useful attributes which SS offers for a lot of the people riding hf.
Last edited by jatem on Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby windrider1 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:56 pm

I agree the peaks can become very unstable at the top of their windrange especially when depowere as the side fold in on themselves. Also some people were claiming it has a good water relaunch which i have not seen so far also in my personal test of the bigger ones . But still agree that they are the best lightwind kites out there and could have some purpose on the water as its very hard to actually crash one .the marabou however is a gamecahnger

kitexpert wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:21 pm
I've never tested any Peaks on the water but I've used them on snow (V's 1,2,4). For that experience I had absolutely no interest to try them on the water even though relaunch can be possible. More likely it is not possible - and why should I risk it when I have plenty of other kites which are designed for water use and are also floating devices with considerable buoyancy and realistic self rescue if something really goes wrong? BTW, I happened to witness one 6m Peak try on the water, it didn't end up well. Kiter lost control in a gust or something and was thrown to the beach, over quite large stones. He had some cuts and bruises and to describe how violent it was his foot came through his boot. Kite ended up in a tree. With bad luck he easily might have died. So personally I don't recommend using Peaks in high end of the wind range because they become quite twitchy, power is too much on-off and there is a lot of it.

All normal single skin kites collapse when steered to the ground and that is a good thing because it makes handling of them so easy: when you want to take a break just drive your kite to the ground and let it collapse there. Nothing can be easier, kite will stay there (in weak to moderate winds which are ss territory) waiting for you to relaunch it. But good luck to do same on the water :)

Arc kites have sticks on the wingtips so they are rigid. If there is not enough pre-inflation solid wingtips and soft center of the kite will cause problems. Soft and stiff parts in a same structure just don't mix well, there is not enough continuity.

Actually I have now several interesting developments, I'm struggling a bit which way to choose. A bit paradoxically best Peak so far, v4, showed me how far concept still is from good LEI or foil kite performance (L/D, boosting, feel etc.) so it was a bit turn-off for me for single skins.. So I guess it is high performance mid AR foil kite next, it is also much less risky try than some weird single skin hybrid.

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Re: Gin Marabou Water Relaunchable Single Skin

Postby foilholio » Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:06 am

Efficiency does matter and even more so the lighter the wind. However you have different measures for efficiency, lift to drag, lift to weight. SS have very high lift but very high drag and very low weight. Despite the high lift and because of the high drag they have poor L/D so bad upwind, bad jumps, etc. The have good L/W, so heaps of pull and an ability to fly and particularly static fly in wind seriously lower than an other kite. Poor L/D doesn't really have any benefits, except maybe some stability, but who doesn't like to boost or ride upwind? at least some of the time! However good L/W has benefits to lightwind for any style, and to certain styles of kiting like surfing and probably more.

On kitexpert it is obvious he doesn't understand neither the style or the type of kite to benefit the style people who are interested in SS for water are into.


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