Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

flysurfer soul long mixer test

For all foil kite riders
PabloQ
Rare Poster
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:31 pm
Kiting since: 8
Local Beach: Quilmes Buenos Aires
Favorite Beaches: Cauipe, Cumbuco, Cofeco
Style: AirStyle Freeride
Gear: Flysurfer soul, Psycho4, Ocean Rodeo Razor Rise, Naish Park, Vari Condor 2, Slingshot Turbo 3
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby PabloQ » Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:20 am

jakemoore wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:57 pm
Foilholio’s Z extend method of equalizing the breaks is a top tip.
Interesting idea, it seems risky, I will try it properly marking everything to go back if there is any unwanted effect.
baxterbradford wrote: just expressing my surprise at the difference in our experience.
As I said before, I feel that it flies correctly with great performance. But when I saw the video of the test I asked myself if it could still be better, but if I could not accommodate the mixer I could turn a big kite into a bad piece of trash. So I want to be careful.
My concern was that on both sides the configuration was the same, so I was wondering if there really was something wrong. With time and with the plan of lines in hand, I will measure the entire distribution of the brakes to see another explanation.
With this 10m I flew with a TT table in 9 / 10kn perfectly, and also in 22 / 25kn with big jumps, floated, and high altitude. It has remained stable in rapt winds. I do not know what else to ask. It's a great kite, I only have that doubt about the mixer.
As I said before, you with more experience, maybe you can give me something ... and I thank you, maybe to learn.

tks

User avatar
Adventure Logs
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 742
Joined: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:18 pm
Kiting since: 2011
Local Beach: Punta del Diablo, Uruguay
Favorite Beaches: Durban, SA
Corpus Christi
Gear: Flysurfer, Moses, Groove, Slinghot, Nobile, Zeeko
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 21 times
Contact:

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby Adventure Logs » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:14 pm

PabloQ wrote:
Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:20 am
jakemoore wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:57 pm
Foilholio’s Z extend method of equalizing the breaks is a top tip.
Interesting idea, it seems risky, I will try it properly marking everything to go back if there is any unwanted effect.
baxterbradford wrote: just expressing my surprise at the difference in our experience.
As I said before, I feel that it flies correctly with great performance. But when I saw the video of the test I asked myself if it could still be better, but if I could not accommodate the mixer I could turn a big kite into a bad piece of trash. So I want to be careful.
My concern was that on both sides the configuration was the same, so I was wondering if there really was something wrong. With time and with the plan of lines in hand, I will measure the entire distribution of the brakes to see another explanation.
With this 10m I flew with a TT table in 9 / 10kn perfectly, and also in 22 / 25kn with big jumps, floated, and high altitude. It has remained stable in rapt winds. I do not know what else to ask. It's a great kite, I only have that doubt about the mixer.
As I said before, you with more experience, maybe you can give me something ... and I thank you, maybe to learn.

tks
How old is your Soul? How many hours roughly are on it? Any crashes or water anchor events? My opinion is if you like the way it flies, leave it. I think you have a bad case of FOMO. If you do decide to mess with it, mark the lines where it is before you do so it’s easy to go back when you screw everything up.
These users thanked the author Adventure Logs for the post:
PabloQ (Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:11 pm)
Rating: 10%

User avatar
Armin Harich
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:00 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Flysurfer founder and constructor
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby Armin Harich » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:18 pm

As said in the Video hold A and Z at the canopy equal and make B and C equal (measured under 5 Kg of load at each line).

For sure you can make everything a bit more accurate but also lot more complex. No need to do that at all, especially when it fly's well. And there is a chance, if you do it the wrong way that it can also fly less good. A lot of people for example don't measure under 5Kg of load and that adjust the Mixer wrong=less good that it was from stock setting.

Cheers, Armin
These users thanked the author Armin Harich for the post:
PabloQ (Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:11 pm)
Rating: 10%

PabloQ
Rare Poster
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:31 pm
Kiting since: 8
Local Beach: Quilmes Buenos Aires
Favorite Beaches: Cauipe, Cumbuco, Cofeco
Style: AirStyle Freeride
Gear: Flysurfer soul, Psycho4, Ocean Rodeo Razor Rise, Naish Park, Vari Condor 2, Slingshot Turbo 3
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby PabloQ » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:30 pm

My soul is less than a year old. This impeccable, does not have an intensive use. If I have used it and chosen on all my kites to learn and appreciate every detail of its design. After using it and knowing it, when I go back to my LEIs I feel like I'm missing something, like getting out of a Mercedes SLK and getting on Peugeot 3008. It's not that the second one is bad, but that it lacks many details that makes the first a delight.
I will take your advice to try some changes with brands and ways to go back. It is good to learn and feel the changes. And if not better, I'll keep the current configuration.
Thank you all.

foilholio
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2708
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:20 am
Kiting since: 1337
Local Beach: Ventura Beach
Favorite Beaches: Tarifa
Style: Airstyle
Gear: Foils
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 107 times
Been thanked: 38 times

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby foilholio » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:34 pm

In my long use of flysurfer kites and foils in general I have found a few ways to adjust them. In general though they can be quite fine left alone and doing something like a mixer test or leveling the mixer can actually turn a good kite bad. The reason being that 2 things cancel each other out, 1 the way the mixer pulley lines shrink which shorten B and C and make the kite more stable and 2 the way the bridles shrink with mainly Z getting shorter which is to make the kite less stable. So more stable + less stable = mostly the same.

As to the ways to adjust. You have either altering the mixer lines ABC and Z. Altering the bridles lines either lengthening with pigtails or shortening with lcl loops. And you have restretching the bridles.

To measure you have the mixer test, long mixer test, measuring bridles and something I recently "invented" which is just a quick way to measure bridles the "full mixer test".

By far the easiest and most effectual adjustment is to add an extension to Z and use the mixer test to restore the B limit with the mixer level. Then adjust the length of Z till the kite flys how you like it. Most likely lengthening Z.

The way in which I had adjusted Z on flysurfers, although being clean and needing no extra parts, has the disadvantage of moving the trim position of the bar when you adjust Z length and being a little hard to fine tune Z, although Z is very tolerant to not being exactly right. I think you may be better just using a pigtail, but also still using the rear main and joins to adjust it on the fly.

Of all things adjusting Z is the most important and easiest to do so. I scratch my head how flysurfer has chosen to instead adjust B and C.
PabloQ wrote:does not have an intensive use
Bridles shrink without use.
Armin Harich wrote: A lot of people for example don't measure under 5Kg of load
While I have used 5kg before I found it to restetch the bridles and so the measurement changes inconsistently. I then adopted to just apply higher force and full stretch them, which works for a while like a new kite does :-)

I recently tried instead to measure the bridles with as little force as possible, just enough to remove the sag. ( now thinking about that maybe laying on a flat surface to use even less force would work even better). My reasoning is to try to capture the length as it is shrunk. I then adjusted the kite as to factory from that shrunk state. The results were/are quite good. Much better than any previous attempt I have done to restore bridles to original by altering the lengths. The state of performance seems to now hold quite steady, especially compared to say stretching.

My theory is that capturing the lengths with little force more accurately relates to their lengths when flying than if using a large force to measure with. I think my theory bears validity given the results I achieved.

There is a bit more to the adjustments I did that adjusting from measured to factory. I still adjust Z at mixer, as I have my own preference and I left Z bridles unadjusted as prefer them like that and I have another theory that flysurfer has designed for some bridle shrink and infact in the process of designing, prototyping, testing, adjusting kites compensating for shrink can be a natural occurrence. My thinking is that you start testing with factory lengths known. You then make adjustments as the kite is used , the more it is used and the later you make adjustments the more the bridle has shrunk and your adjustments are most likely compensating for that shrink. If you either just alter the design length by the adjustment length or stretch and measure you then have a bridle that will "bed in" and not be the correct length till after some use as is observed in flysurfer kites for very long now.

My idea about avoiding the 5kg force is you then get to really see how much the bridles truly shrink. I think with that data you could probably come up with equations for compensating for shrink, which I guess you have by now?
These users thanked the author foilholio for the post:
RagingGrandpa (Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:35 pm)
Rating: 10%

User avatar
Armin Harich
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 1:00 am
Kiting since: 0
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Flysurfer founder and constructor
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby Armin Harich » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:53 am

If someone wants to play with out old flash mixer app, to see how the Mixer is deforming the airfoil, here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/srlmlk90mmc9t ... p.zip?dl=1

It is important to measure with 5 Kg load. Otherwise you will set C and B main up to 5mm too long.
The reason is that the sparepartlines are more elastic due to less prestrech to decrease shrinkage while ruling over the pulleys.
Please measure correct as defined to avoid to dissadjust the kite.

Cheers, Armin
These users thanked the author Armin Harich for the post:
direnc (Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:42 am)
Rating: 10%

cwood
Frequent Poster
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:28 pm
Kiting since: 2014
Local Beach: Cherry Beach, Toronto
Gear: Flysurfer
Moses Hydrofoil
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby cwood » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:04 pm

We have found that the Souls are very sensitive to these adjustments....and can go from delightful boost monsters to "damn there is something wrong with this thing" all of a sudden. Asymmetrical flight being one of the most frustrating. That said, very easy to restore to the beauty that they are. My original approach on long mixer was to try to get back to all equal by stretching Z with the metal rings pinned together, then B and C adjusted to have all back to "factory"....however with great back and forth support from FS engineering, they do not recommend Z stretch as they quickly return to the shrunken state after a bit of use.

Rather, leave Z, align with A black marks under some load against a helper that is ready with a stick to "lock" the ring ends / pigtails where you call out the A and Z equal. Then adjust B and C to align all marks. This results in the rings being a bit off length wise but this can be handled with a bit of trim adjustment. With a willing partner you can do a kite in a matter of minutes.

Foilholio's lengthening of Z is intriguing for sure but the above is easier.
These users thanked the author cwood for the post:
neilhapgood (Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:45 pm)
Rating: 10%

Flyfish
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 2:27 pm
Kiting since: 2000
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby Flyfish » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:12 pm

Armin Harich wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:53 am
If someone wants to play with out old flash mixer app, to see how the Mixer is deforming the airfoil, here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/srlmlk90mmc9t ... p.zip?dl=1
Armin,
I'm a computer idiot. Is there anyway you or someone else can film the screen of the mixer app in motion and stick it on YouTube?

Maybe another forum member out there?

I've been interested in seeing that for quite awhile!

Thanks

neilhapgood
Medium Poster
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 11:03 am
Kiting since: 2005
Local Beach: Swansea
Gear: twin tip
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby neilhapgood » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:47 pm

thanks Cwood, that kinda makes sense, so it is better to have the pigtails different lengths but everything square at the kite end then adjust the depower to make up for the different pigtail lengths?

also how does one know how much 5kg of pressure is, is that basically pull as hard as you can?!

cwood
Frequent Poster
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:28 pm
Kiting since: 2014
Local Beach: Cherry Beach, Toronto
Gear: Flysurfer
Moses Hydrofoil
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: flysurfer soul long mixer test

Postby cwood » Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:54 pm

neilhapgood wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:47 pm
thanks Cwood, that kinda makes sense, so it is better to have the pigtails different lengths but everything square at the kite end then adjust the depower to make up for the different pigtail lengths?

also how does one know how much 5kg of pressure is, is that basically pull as hard as you can?!
It's basically 10lb of pull, or in my view, has hard as you can pull with bridle lines wrapped around your fingers before it hurts too much :-).

I basically hold A and Z aligned with hand wraps, then get the other person to pull hard on the pigtails varying until equal tension on both and black still aligned....then tell them to "lock them" and they wrap firmly a few times around a stick of some sort or screw driver shaft. Then you are no longer relying on that other human keeping things equal...and they have something to resist your subsequent pulls to compare B and C to A....they also keep their place as you adjust rings a bit if needed. Remember that adjusting C will impact B a bit too. There is really little to fear in all of this because even if you over shoot, you can just work it till you have good alignment.


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Skywalker7, slowboat, wood1 and 1 guest

cron