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Pansh Aurora 3

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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby Adventure Logs » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:42 pm

What foil kites have you own/ride Foilholio? I know the Psycho4 which was released over 10 years ago but I would like to see your “resume” of the sorts. It would be good to see what you base things off of.

I get it, some people can’t afford the latest and greatest and that is life. But then to overcompensate and try to justify your choices on ridiculous claims is where I have a problem.

Again no one has talked about the issue that I’ve brought up. If a kite is under 100 bucks, what kind of quality are you getting. As I’ve stated before, companies don’t just give stuff away or take a loss. Would you be ok hanging under a kite 10 meters in the air that cost pennies to make?

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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby foilholio » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:34 am

Quite a few, I am not new to this sport. I used to demo here and there and after not seeing a significant change in kites lost interest in doing so. The Pyscho4 was released 12 years ago. I should probably try some more, the Aluula has me interested and some other kites, I have strangely yet to fly a soul but have flown every model of speed. I was impressed to see PA change on the soul having seen it mentioned but never seen it before until recently. It was said to be a PMA adjustment so I guess most people don't make those changes.
Adventure Logs wrote: I get it, some people can’t afford the latest and greatest and that is life.
I don't think I have ever claimed Pansh are the greatest performing kites? They are the greatest value though, being a metric of price to performance.
Adventure Logs wrote: But then to overcompensate and try to justify your choices on ridiculous claims is where I have a problem.
Would you like to go into this more? Price is a good justification especially if you do get something usable for the money.
Adventure Logs wrote: Again no one has talked about the issue that I’ve brought up.
Adventure Logs wrote: If a kite is under 100 bucks, what kind of quality are you getting.
I take it this is the issue? Ok well have you seen a Pansh kite? Looked it over? Flown it? Quality is not flysurfer, but it is not like miles off either. There is mostly things done in a flysurfer way, there is obviously not too many ways you can build these things. Things are done in obviously cheaper materials or in a lighter way or maybe not as thought out as flysurfer or the edges are rough inside etc. In the end though they work, not the best but ok or good. People myself especially have made effort to improve them more to their liking. They can then become better kites. I do this as well to flysurfers, my Psycho4s are no longer standard and are quite improved. I know the kite so well I know how to change the PA change in a few different ways. I also know how those changes affect the use of the kite. Flysurfers PMAs are a great idea for foil kites.
Adventure Logs wrote: As I’ve stated before, companies don’t just give stuff away or take a loss.
Well yes and no, companies do take a loss all the time! China as a nation and a government does this to get into or manipulate a market or product. Companies will often have loss leading products, I suggest you read about them. In the case of the "$100 dollar kite" or the Pansh Genesis and then also the kite before it the Adam, these could be loss leading products. They seem a little cheap, but the glaring fact is the giant PANSH logo made of kite fabric occupying the entire top of the kite. Think about it, you offer a cheaper kite, probably at cost and you also get your name everywhere. This is a basic and effective market method, most companies offer these things for free or even pay people to have them. This is why brands have pros, so people do some association. Product X must be able to do Y because rider Z uses it to do Y. It is nothing but a financial transaction and people only fool themselves to believe the narrative. In some ways I more respect the grassroots Pansh method.
Adventure Logs wrote: Would you be ok hanging under a kite 10 meters in the air that cost pennies to make?
Well first you are making another illogical statement, but I will continue because I like you :-) and maybe even if I didn't. They likely do not cost pennies to make, but trust me as well you do not understand the costs in the Chinese economy because they very well could cost pennies, but I highly doubt it. Secondly the prices you pay for a Pansh kite are similar to the prices a Brand pays for a kite coming out of the factory. The factory is usually in China but now moving to other Asian countries, still usually run by Chinese... for most products...So Pansh is making kites in China getting a similar amount of money as the other companies making kites in China. They use cheaper materials, likely faster methods and probably cheaper labor (western companies can be funny about that). The Chinese government probably subsidizes them, either with cheap loans or some other method. They may even help with supply of intellectual material, gained through what ever methods, like out of other factories making kites. It is law this has to be done by the way, all factories remain in Chinese control and majority ownership. They have smart leaders unlike us. In the end it is likely Pansh is making money and expanding, even with these cheap prices. Pansh will likely eventually have offerings that match any other brand. China will eventually have a kite brand that matches any other brand and likely exceeds them. China will eventually exceed most other nations in technology in most areas. Kiting is coming to the Olympics and China loves to show off there. Watch out for the China kite :-)

As to worrying about falling from 10 meters? on land sure on water don't be silly.

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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:03 am

Adventure Logs wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:03 pm
Ha here we go...now to hear from A poster who has a reputation of just spamming bs responses until others give up with frustration :roll:

Explain this? What is your history with foil kites?
Come on A-log, we've been over this. The best kite of 2011 and 2012 was the HQ Matrix 1. That kite was not surpassed until the Chrono 2. But personally, I still prefer the Matrix 1, as it has shown to have an extremely long life span given its lower aspect ratio. Fairly soon I think I'm going to need to start watching the sewing that's exposed to the sun for signs of complete deterioration. Tons of hours on all three of my 15 m.

I started out on non dbpower foils. I have used almost all of Ozone's offerings, flysurfer speed series, and almost all of hq's offerings. I've also used some of Peter Lynn's older kites. Bang for the buck award went to HQ along with customer service. Best kite ever for its target market goes to Ozone for the Access series. Worst kite made after 2005 or so award goes to Ozone for the summit. Least bang for the buck goes to Ozone for the Frenzy.

Best name I've ever been called award goes to A-log for calling me a spammer. I wonder if I can get that as a formal title. Even better that it's coming from someone who just calls someone a name when they disagree with them. Oh, and that frustration is typically caused by running out of logic and reason to argue your point. Often times emotional people do give up. Rational and logical people present their side of the argument and back it up with evidence.
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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:21 am

Adventure Logs wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:42 pm
What foil kites have you own/ride Foilholio? I know the Psycho4 which was released over 10 years ago but I would like to see your “resume” of the sorts. It would be good to see what you base things off of.

I get it, some people can’t afford the latest and greatest and that is life. But then to overcompensate and try to justify your choices on ridiculous claims is where I have a problem.

Again no one has talked about the issue that I’ve brought up. If a kite is under 100 bucks, what kind of quality are you getting. As I’ve stated before, companies don’t just give stuff away or take a loss. Would you be ok hanging under a kite 10 meters in the air that cost pennies to make?
And this one deserves a separate response, A-log. First off, I kind of want to ask about your foil kite experience and which ones you've used, owned, and or still use. But the reality is, with the rest of your comment, I don't think you're a rational person with which to actually get useful info from. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Then again, saying that a kite costs pennies to make is such BS that I don't think you're anywhere on the same level as some other posters here. Pansh kites cost anywhere from around $100 to $400. That's including the cost of the kite, plus the markup that the factory needs to justify staying in business. But the real kicker is that that is 5 times or so less then other kite companies offerings.

And that's where we get to figure out where the markup is on this other stuff. Because guess what? Those other kites are made in China too! There's just a huge network of distributors, designers, company owners, paid team Riders, and so on, that want some of your money too. That's what pants cuts out, not necessarily the quality. Again, all of these kites are pretty much made in China anyway. If not, they're made in another country with similar labor rates, out of fabric that is made in China anyway.

But you want to know where you are right A-log? Some of my own hubris was in my kites in the beginning. I bought ozone as some of my first dbpower kite because I was unhappy with another company. Mistakenly I believed that would give me better customer service. Turns out lots of kite companies, not just ozone, can tell you to FO even if you DO pay an arm and a leg for their gear.
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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby deniska » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:55 am

more of the talking heads and no essence...
I just re-watched the youtube review with the bearded dude on page 1 (post #10 by foilholio)
and almost peed my pants.. first he trashes ozone chrono on the beach: "I think it's oookey" with a face like " let's give retarded kid a cookie"
then he mows the lawn with Aurora 3 and returns with verdict: "Great booster!!!" when in reality he never crossed 3 meters or 3 seconds in this video..
As a matter of fact the biggest boost on that review was some other guy on another kite...
sad shit, but hilarious to those who can see the kooks...
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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby Adventure Logs » Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am

foilholio wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:34 am
Quite a few, I am not new to this sport. I used to demo here and there and after not seeing a significant change in kites lost interest in doing so.
Well that doesn’t make sense then because there’s been a big jump in performance since the Speed 4 days with the Chrono/Sonic and on. Perhaps you just don’t know that. Would explain why you Pansh is that great. You are comparing it to decade old designs. It’s all relative.
Matteo V wrote:
And this one deserves a separate response, A-log. First off, I kind of want to ask about your foil kite experience and which ones you've used, owned, and or still use. But the reality is, with the rest of your comment, I don't think you're a rational person with which to actually get useful info from. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
Speed 3,4 Psycho4, Chrono, Sonic FR,2,3 Soul, Lecca, HQ, Peak3,4 and a couple older Arcs from Peter Lynn.

You do realize there’s a huge difference in manufacturing that comes out of China right? Just because two brands have their kites done in the same country doesn’t mean their equal. I mean that’s a pretty idiotic way of thinking :roll:

Yes the manufacturing costs for Ozone or Flysurfer are much higher but you are also getting much more as well. I’m glad some think it’s ok to be dropped from 10m since it’s only water. Pretty sure people have broken bones from that height due to quick release failures. But hey you are saving a couple bucks so...

If you think the best kite came from HQ then well... :roll: :roll:
Matteo V wrote: I don't think you're a rational person with which to actually get useful info from. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it. I strive to give basic facts and information on my posts here and through my videos. The reason I’m on the forum is to “pay it forward” and I do hope it has been useful. It’s not like I’m on some helmet/safety gear thread spamming responses to every single poster until the thread is killed and everyone has ran off because, what’s the point. I have more constructive things to do with my time.

I do plan this summer to buy one of these cheap Pansh kites because I like to have first hand experience with such things. I will document the entire process and let others decide if the gains outweigh the risks. I will try to keep it as neutral opinionated as possible and will compare it to other modern kites. I have a feeling the kite will end up in the trash but who knows, maybe I will be surprised.

Yes I do mainly ride FS and that is the brand I prefer mostly due to the customer service and performance. I know my kites will work out of the bag and for a long amount of time even though I am EXTREMELY hard on my gear. I know the resale will be high and if I have ANY problem, it will be dealt with. That peace of mind is worth it to me. I am independent though, I am not sponsored in anyway, I just believe in their gear.

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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby hongchew » Mon Mar 02, 2020 7:10 am

But the bearded dude said he really liked the duotone cappa, and would just buy it if money wasn't subject, lol.
I think he came across more unbiased than you, seriously.

deniska wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:55 am
more of the talking heads and no essence...
I just re-watched the youtube review with the bearded dude on page 1 (post #10 by foilholio)
and almost peed my pants.. first he trashes ozone chrono on the beach: "I think it's oookey" with a face like " let's give retarded kid a cookie"
then he mows the lawn with Aurora 3 and returns with verdict: "Great booster!!!" when in reality he never crossed 3 meters or 3 seconds in this video..
As a matter of fact the biggest boost on that review was some other guy on another kite...
sad shit, but hilarious to those who can see the kooks...

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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby foilholio » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:52 pm

That dude actually has some interesting vids, I just put him up because he was one of the few vids on topic....
Adventure Logs wrote: Well that doesn’t make sense then because there’s been a big jump in performance since the Speed 4 days with the Chrono/Sonic and on. Perhaps you just don’t know that. Would explain why you Pansh is that great. You are comparing it to decade old designs. It’s all relative.
Ok so yes Chrono and Sonic are higher performance much higher in fact but how do they go wave riding?? Have you ridden waves with them? I have and although their performance is excellent they are just a little too high maintenance on waves. Speed series is the same in smaller sizes, but bigger sizes are fine. I might assume the biggest size of the race styles is fine on waves but I have never ridden one.

So basically if you want to compare the highest performing kites (ie higher AR) of other brands vs pansh you will have to wait a bit for the new Aeolus to come out. If you want to compare say low, mid or high AR then sure, there is the hyperlink, soul etc. Not many brands make low AR or even real mid AR. Other people have stated some kites from Pansh can compare to the soul, when using the jackomixer. I am a little skeptical of those comparisons, knowing flysurfer.

For certain kites improve they though have certainly not as much as you are alluding to. Foils kites can suffer horribly from tune problems and the information flysurfer has provided on the matter has not been complete or correct in some aspects though that has changed with time. So basically to find an aged foil kite that was flying correctly or well, has been almost impossible. People tend to just play pass the "not working right" kite around second hand. I can tell you that one of the worst kites for this is the Psycho4, but when it is flying right it is one of the best kites ever made, with a few changes.
Adventure Logs wrote: But then to overcompensate and try to justify your choices on ridiculous claims is where I have a problem.
So I just want to bring up this quote from you. People do certainly try to justify their choices in life. One of those choices is why do they need the latest kite from a certain brand or to pay so much $$$ for gear. I am going to lay it out to you as straight as I can, 90% of this sport is time on the water. You having fun is entirely dependent on your mind and nothing else. Gear in many ways has truly not improved that much. Yes from brand to brand and model to model you can find big improvements, but if you look back through the years you will find kites, like the Psycho 4 that are still relevant. Look at Toby on old rebels or Horst talking about taking out the mosquito. Yes hydrofoils are amazing but to be honest I can have just as much and in many ways more fun on a surfboard. What is good about hydrofoils? They give you much more time on the water, remember that 90% bit?

One has to wonder if you, deniska and anyone else invading this thread are not just trying to justify your own choices. But hey I welcome any conversation. And yes I do know I post about Pansh everywhere and shit talk other gear, like duotone's lines etc.

I do have concern for the industry, the fact it hasn't gotten over the chickenloop is a worrying sign. I do like flysurfer, but I am sorry to say they won't survive someone like Pansh if they make kites as good or better than them and undercut on price as they are. Most brands would fold or be forced to compete if even one of the majors went direct and cut standard prices in half. I know exactly what brands pay for kites and what you can get them for. I think beginners being corralled, into handing over all the money for instructors, resellers, brands, pros and pimps is really really not fair and is why so many people are not taking up the sport. Maybe some people like less people in the sport. They are achieving the goal.
Adventure Logs wrote: You do realize there’s a huge difference in manufacturing that comes out of China right?
Certainly and it would be great if Pansh changed some things. It would also be great if all the major brands changed some things too, like stopped making chicken loops.
Adventure Logs wrote: Yes the manufacturing costs for Ozone or Flysurfer are much higher but you are also getting much more as well.

The manufacturing costs are likely slightly higher and you are only getting slightly more, the main differences is the overall design shape. The finer points are nice but not 100% necessary. A strong argument can be made that adjustable mixers are stupid and yes I know I have argued the opposite. People change opinions get over it.
Adventure Logs wrote: I’m glad some think it’s ok to be dropped from 10m since it’s only water.
No, just not a big issue.
Adventure Logs wrote: Pretty sure people have broken bones from that height due to quick release failures.
Well they had these problems not with Pansh didn't they?

So I am guessing you are referring to my often bringing up of Ruben Lenten. Few things. He was megalooping and much higher than 10m if I remember, you really can't megaloop well at 10m. You have done megaloops? Sure you have :-) You wouldn't be making this argument if you had wouldn't you :-) So megaloops have a huge downwind speed component. You end up basically going at the wind speed downwind, well at least if you do them right and the exciting way and you get a slack line falling moment, sooo much fun L-) To megaloop you really need 35 plus knots so you will be doing that plus whatever gravity will give you falling. You need the kite to catch you or well you can quite likely die. They are surprisingly easy things to do but the whole you can die bit is not to be understated. Add doing them in 1 foot of water or on land for even more excitement, I think it's the "you can die" factor. Would I megaloop a pansh kite, now? no fucking way. If I was younger may may maybe. :lol: Some upgrades are highly recommended for that on them, like the A mains...

As to chickenloops, as shit as the Pansh one is, or at least the one they sent me, well I can basically guarantee it won't do what the piece of shit Ozone designed did.

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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby Matteo V » Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:16 pm

Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am

You do realize there’s a huge difference in manufacturing that comes out of China right? Just because two brands have their kites done in the same country doesn’t mean their equal. I mean that’s a pretty idiotic way of thinking :roll:

Yes the manufacturing costs for Ozone or Flysurfer are much higher but you are also getting much more as well. I’m glad some think it’s ok to be dropped from 10m since it’s only water. Pretty sure people have broken bones from that height due to quick release failures. But hey you are saving a couple bucks so...
What's the difference? Better people sewing the kite together? Better thread? Go ahead and lay it out as to what we are paying an additional $1500 for something that costs less than $400 to buy from the factory - when the factory has their profit figured into that $400. Are you really getting an extra $1500 in value from flysurfer??? What can you say is worth that much more on that kite????

Pretty much all kite manufactures try to use the same factory year after year. But that is not always possible in China since some factories are that in name only. Some only operate for a single production run, though often with the same very experienced assemblers. So Pansh may truly be set up for something of a different approach even beyond of being direct to market.



Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am
If you think the best kite came from HQ then well... :roll: :roll:
Yes. The HQ Matrix 1 was a much better kite than anything produced at the time. Remember Flysurfer was still stuck in the speed series for it's ultimate "light wind" performance. And that kite was a joke that turned more people off to big foils than any other. Even the Pansh kites I have had some experience with, matched or exceeded the overall capabilities of the Speed series. It was not until the Chrono 2 came out that the Matrixx 1 was surpassed. And while HQ made better kites than the Ozone Frenzy series with HQ's Montana 5, 6, and 7, HQ also fell flat on their face with the Matrix 2 and the Montana 8.

So let me set this one up for you - I judge individual kites, not brands. The only judgement you can put on brands is "customer service" or "historically ignoring" the competitions better designs. Flysurfer, Ozone, and Peter Lynn, are all guilty of that. HQ is guilty of getting rid of good designs, in favor of mediocre ones.

And just as a side note......would you agree that the Best Waroo was one of the best, if not the best, as well as being the most influential and foundational kite of our modern kite world??? That came from what I am sure you would call a "cheap" brand.



Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am

I strive to give basic facts and information on my posts here and through my videos.....

I do plan this summer to buy one of these cheap Pansh kites because I like to have first hand experience with such things. I will document the entire process and let others decide if the gains outweigh the risks. I will try to keep it as neutral opinionated as possible and will compare it to other modern kites. I have a feeling the kite will end up in the trash but who knows, maybe I will be surprised.

Yes I do mainly ride FS and that is the brand I prefer mostly due to the customer service and performance. I know my kites will work out of the bag and for a long amount of time even though I am EXTREMELY hard on my gear. I know the resale will be high and if I have ANY problem, it will be dealt with. That peace of mind is worth it to me. I am independent though, I am not sponsored in anyway, I just believe in their gear.


Maybe DON'T do this review. You have blatantly admitted to a bias and a preconceived outcome for your test. That is not a good way to start a "neutral" testing. Please understand that your self described reputation here is "to strive to give basic facts and information". Again, you have ruined that potential with the statements following that one.



Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am
....I just believe in their gear.
This is where you and I differ. I know how corporations work. Every single piece-of-s--t kite produced in the last 10 years since good designs were developed, came out of some desire for profit by "replacing what worked with something that did not work as well." Then you had to buy the following years kite in hope they fixed it. Thus the stream of money was kept flowing into the pockets of those who also probably "believed" they were doing the regular kite user a favor.

I do not "believe" in gear. It is either good or bad, affordable or a wast of money vs another alternative, regardless of where it came from. Your "beliefs" are the blinders of fashion and group think. Objectivity has no beliefs. What is, is.



And just a word of caution, no kite - from Pansh to Flysurfer, should be purchased believing that its cost is equal or less than it's value to you as a kiter.

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Re: Pansh Aurora 3

Postby Adventure Logs » Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:11 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 5:16 pm
Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am

You do realize there’s a huge difference in manufacturing that comes out of China right? Just because two brands have their kites done in the same country doesn’t mean their equal. I mean that’s a pretty idiotic way of thinking :roll:

Yes the manufacturing costs for Ozone or Flysurfer are much higher but you are also getting much more as well. I’m glad some think it’s ok to be dropped from 10m since it’s only water. Pretty sure people have broken bones from that height due to quick release failures. But hey you are saving a couple bucks so...
What's the difference? Better people sewing the kite together? Better thread? Go ahead and lay it out as to what we are paying an additional $1500 for something that costs less than $400 to buy from the factory - when the factory has their profit figured into that $400. Are you really getting an extra $1500 in value from flysurfer??? What can you say is worth that much more on that kite????

Pretty much all kite manufactures try to use the same factory year after year. But that is not always possible in China since some factories are that in name only. Some only operate for a single production run, though often with the same very experienced assemblers. So Pansh may truly be set up for something of a different approach even beyond of being direct to market.



Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am
If you think the best kite came from HQ then well... :roll: :roll:
Yes. The HQ Matrix 1 was a much better kite than anything produced at the time. Remember Flysurfer was still stuck in the speed series for it's ultimate "light wind" performance. And that kite was a joke that turned more people off to big foils than any other. Even the Pansh kites I have had some experience with, matched or exceeded the overall capabilities of the Speed series. It was not until the Chrono 2 came out that the Matrixx 1 was surpassed. And while HQ made better kites than the Ozone Frenzy series with HQ's Montana 5, 6, and 7, HQ also fell flat on their face with the Matrix 2 and the Montana 8.

So let me set this one up for you - I judge individual kites, not brands. The only judgement you can put on brands is "customer service" or "historically ignoring" the competitions better designs. Flysurfer, Ozone, and Peter Lynn, are all guilty of that. HQ is guilty of getting rid of good designs, in favor of mediocre ones.

And just as a side note......would you agree that the Best Waroo was one of the best, if not the best, as well as being the most influential and foundational kite of our modern kite world??? That came from what I am sure you would call a "cheap" brand.



Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am

I strive to give basic facts and information on my posts here and through my videos.....

I do plan this summer to buy one of these cheap Pansh kites because I like to have first hand experience with such things. I will document the entire process and let others decide if the gains outweigh the risks. I will try to keep it as neutral opinionated as possible and will compare it to other modern kites. I have a feeling the kite will end up in the trash but who knows, maybe I will be surprised.

Yes I do mainly ride FS and that is the brand I prefer mostly due to the customer service and performance. I know my kites will work out of the bag and for a long amount of time even though I am EXTREMELY hard on my gear. I know the resale will be high and if I have ANY problem, it will be dealt with. That peace of mind is worth it to me. I am independent though, I am not sponsored in anyway, I just believe in their gear.


Maybe DON'T do this review. You have blatantly admitted to a bias and a preconceived outcome for your test. That is not a good way to start a "neutral" testing. Please understand that your self described reputation here is "to strive to give basic facts and information". Again, you have ruined that potential with the statements following that one.



Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 6:52 am
....I just believe in their gear.
This is where you and I differ. I know how corporations work. Every single piece-of-s--t kite produced in the last 10 years since good designs were developed, came out of some desire for profit by "replacing what worked with something that did not work as well." Then you had to buy the following years kite in hope they fixed it. Thus the stream of money was kept flowing into the pockets of those who also probably "believed" they were doing the regular kite user a favor.

I do not "believe" in gear. It is either good or bad, affordable or a wast of money vs another alternative, regardless of where it came from. Your "beliefs" are the blinders of fashion and group think. Objectivity has no beliefs. What is, is.



And just a word of caution, no kite - from Pansh to Flysurfer, should be purchased believing that its cost is equal or less than it's value to you as a kiter.
Dude just stop, you are talking out of your ass. It's very obvious you are biased, hell even your profile says "f--- the corporate world", it's pretty pathetic.

Yes there's differences in cost material including even thread. The fact that you don't know this shows your ignorance.

Costs includes designing/testing the wing as well. Flysurfer has even won awards for their designs.

Funny how you knock on the Speeds so much but that line is a big reason why Flysurfer is the top foil manufacturer out there.

Self described huh? Shall I share the feedback that I receive on a daily basis? I actually put actions to my words unlike you, keyboard warrior.

Why are you so afraid of me releasing a Pansh video? It's hard to be biased when you'll be able to actually see with your own eyes the process and handling. There's the difference between me and you. I actually show results, I don't just bitch behind a keyboard.

You're anti corporation attitude is so "edgy" while typing from a computer/phone brought you to by...a corporation :roll: Must be a hit with the ladies lol.

I'm done replying to you, it's obviously a waste of my time. I'm sure you'll consider this a "win" but you know what they say about wining an argument on the internet, it's like winning in the special olympics...
foilholio wrote:
Ok so yes Chrono and Sonic are higher performance much higher in fact but how do they go wave riding?? Have you ridden waves with them? I have and although their performance is excellent they are just a little too high maintenance on waves. Speed series is the same in smaller sizes, but bigger sizes are fine. I might assume the biggest size of the race styles is fine on waves but I have never ridden one.
Have you had much time or any under a Soul? My main style of riding now is wave hydrofoiling and especially the smaller Souls are great at that. I love my 6m with a HF, it drifts almost as well as my Peak4 3m and since you praise the Psycho, I bet you would love it too. The Sonic 2 you can wave ride some, the easy backstall helps but it's not really designed for that. Also no foil(including the Peak4) will work that great when you rapidly ride into the kite but they are designed to drift(slack line) much better now than back in the Speed days.
foilholio wrote: Yes hydrofoils are amazing but to be honest I can have just as much and in many ways more fun on a surfboard. What is good about hydrofoils? They give you much more time on the water, remember that 90% bit?

One has to wonder if you, deniska and anyone else invading this thread are not just trying to justify your own choices. But hey I welcome any conversation. And yes I do know I post about Pansh everywhere and shit talk other gear, like duotone's lines etc.
I enjoy hydrofoiling because it's less impact on my body but most importantly the freedom of movement which I can best describe as "dancing on water". I'm not trying to justify. Here's an example of my problem with Pansh. Say you have a LEI kiteboarder who has been thinking about switching over to foilkites. After hearing that "Pansh is just as good as xxx brand" but for much cheaper and ends up buying one. Right now of the bag he has big problems(which you are more likely than not going to have). The kiteboarder has no experience with foils, doesn't know how to tune or want to put the time and patience in to try to tune it correctly. He/she ends up having a horrible experience with it and then from the moment on believes that all foil kites are crap and inferior and shares is opinions with his fellow kiters. That's the type of scenario where I have problems.
foilholio wrote: The manufacturing costs are likely slightly higher and you are only getting slightly more, the main differences is the overall design shape. The finer points are nice but not 100% necessary. A strong argument can be made that adjustable mixers are stupid and yes I know I have argued the opposite. People change opinions get over it.
So now you think adjustable mixers are stupid? What? Is this because Pansh doesn't have them? There's nothing to "get over it" about but someone who constantly changes their opinions to further their arguments become uncredible.

Well I think I've exhausted my opinion on this matter to death so I shall leave this thread. There will always be things to argue about but it's a waste in my opinion to argue with a brick wall. You enjoy having to constantly work on your Panshs to get them to fly correctly(I know you enjoy this anyhow) while I'll continue to enjoy my Flysurfers while abusing them, putting them away wet and sandy, kitelooping them, drifting them, taking them out greatly overpowered, still relaunching them after sitting on the water for extended periods of time, being able to put a huge amount of hours on them while easily bringing them back to near factory performance, having great customer service not only from my dealer but from FS headquarters and main designers, and overall having fantastic worry free sessions, day after day :D

=Jason-


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