Best hydrofoil wave kite: ConceptAir Firefly vs. Flysurfer Peak 4

[Horst Sergio]

First user have compared both kites as here the user slowboat both 4 m² here: viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2403249&start=30

I now also have compared my 2,5 m² Firefly against my 3 m² and want to share quick and dirty my first impressions in about 12 knts lulls to 27 knts gusts:

First of all I really love both kites, they are really pretty similar as being both single skins in their behaviour, but on the other hand I am pretty sure to have already seen also relevant differences, similar to those also slowboat has seen:

Firefly behaviour in many points is what you would expect from its outline. It has relevant lower AR and so also the upwind is worse than Peak4, but if the wind is well in its windrange it was still good to me. Just if it is low where you are just close to get started it feels that the Peak4 goes upwind relevant earlier and better.
I also felt the much higher tendency of the firefly for flydown. But it is not an uncompfortable flydown which you have to stear against as known from most tube kites I know, but more a much higher sensiblity in the wind window. On one hand this is a bit anoying if you have to reinstall your leash or something while flying but on the other hand it also means that the Firefly felt like a brutal quick turner. I was quite surprised how "slow" the Peak4 turned in comparison and that the Firefly could be looped much easier with one hand while unhooked. I think I started to like this but I also could imagine for some it might be to nervous. The stearing forces of the Firefly are still well feel able but way less than the ConceptAir Wave, why I would recommend to anybody who is looking for a more relaxed wave foil kite to maybe better go with that one. Also the Peak has pretty low forces but at least when trying to loop unhooked with one hand felt harder to do (maybe a bit as I actually use it with a 50 cm a bit to wide bar). The rest of the turning behaviour is similar, you can variate loop size into every radius till spin.

While drifting of both kites is as known just awesome but as named before the Firefly sits deeper in the windwindow which causes especially when being unhooked (no matter what trimmer position tried in a wide range) the ride on a wave is more influenced by the kite or lets say more powered. What I liked so much with the Peak4 that you just ride the wave while you just loose all the pull from the kite didn't feel as well with the Firefly. On the other hand you can ride more dynamic powerfull with the Firefly as able to loop it permently in the needed direction with just one hand unhooked. It is a bit more about another style than about better or worse.
When doing so a few time I missed to follow the quick turns of the Firelfy with my foil so it pulled me of or the normal suicided leashed bar out of the hand. This is where the Firefly Hybrid really shines over all. Smashing the kite into the wind waves completely uncontrolled resulted always in: Sort yourself, take your time, sit on the board, pull in the leash, hook in chickenloop ... and then just stear the kite up flipping it around just with the bar, into the sky just awesome. If it will be not just the about 5 times I tried it, but always like this, the firefly may pull me of the board as often it likes to when pushing its super fast powerfull riding style to the limit.

I was just in the about mid to lowest wind range of both kites (wind decreased when on the Peak4) unfortunately also the wind waves haven't been very well. The wind range felt pretty similar, surprisingly the one of the firefly didn't feel worse, but it could be that it is just more compfortable to ride the firefly more powered. While the Peak4 starts a very high frequent flapping when depowered, the flapping of the firefly is of lower frequency but more powerful but as said it feels that you can go significant higher maybe even above in comparision to their sizes. In the gusts the firefly felt always like asking for: "more more MORE!" But on the other hand in the low end it doesn't felt much worse if even than the Peak4. Apart from me there have been quite some folks on the spot that was quite impressed I was able to work my 110 cm Skate XS out of the water also in most lulls with a just 2,5 m² (think limit in around 13 knts) while during most time of the session another not much heavier guy was boosting high with an 11 m² Sonic Race on a Race foil setup ... as having the same kite I now know: no need for all the kites inbetween, both seem to have a quite good overlapp also in gusty conditions with a size factor of 1:4,4 inbetween and for me a total compfortable windrange of around 6 - 36 knts ... lets see maybe i keep one kite inbetween, just to make sure.

I will try to compare both kites again in better waves and maybe changing the bar of the Peak4 (which also had longer (original 21) lines, firefly on around 17 m)
If I realize to seperate myself from the Peak4 in 3 m² I would expect instead a 4 m² Peak4 could be a great combination with the 2,5 m² firefly to have all thier benefits in the range where they shine most:
In the lower windrange where it is more important a better upwind and on the other hand less importance of having such a perfect relaunchability as the firefly.

[gl]

Horst could you tell me your technique for getting up on the board in 13 to 14 knots on your 2.5 Firefly. Could you estimate at what wind speed you are able to ride with the kite parked. Thanks for the review.

[Horst Sergio]

I would like to tell but it is similar as on the wingfoil: Sometime you fight pump and move with all your force and then in rare cases sundenly you fly but without knowing exactly what you have done better of if having more wind then the last time. The only thing for sure it allways costs all your energy and you will need some km to come down and relax after those low wind starts. But as said in the other threat I will try to upload the video of the start, as said it tooks me 9 loops!

[Horst Sergio]

Hi gl,
again the best techique in low wind if you have enough physical power:
trimm the kite to unhooked most powerful loops hook of and then help the kite by pumping your foil out of the water.

But in the video you just see a "normal" light wind start:

[Horst Sergio]

I am going on with my tests but unfortunately haven't had enough wind in the last time. But actually trying to improve the setups.

For the Peak4 3 m² I am pretty happy with the normal straight camber settings riding it on a 43 cm wide bar and 18 m lines.

For the Firefly I actually have a also 43 cm but gone down to 13 m lines. The 40 cm bar setting felt possible but a bit short, and just helpful to make it less nervous.
For the camber I recieved an advice from Ben to set it up to much much less camber, for better upwind and for normal wings should also give it a better highend what I am looking for.
As till now I haven't had experience changing camber on single skin I was pretty suprised to see his recomendation (as I understood it, as colors of his bridle also in the picture is very confusing) to pull in C-level by 7 cm (and therefor also B by half of it). Knowing that on much bigger race kites with also longer cord you can even feel 0,5 cm and +/- 2 cm from 0 is mostly already to much ...
But then remembering that on single skins camber could be much much more tollerant and indeed it was:

These are the setting I have used till now:

From left to right.
1. As I remember how it was delivered with biggest camber
2. As I used it during most of the test video already trying to get more upwind but now knowing much to small step
3-4. What I now would call a 0 setting
5. How I will try it now and also have tried it in to low wind, still flying very nice, hooked and unhooked.
(6. not in the picture: Bens recomendation, as I understood was even 2 more knots less camber, will test this aswell when have seen the actuall setting)

On top I have to say, appart from the till now not really understandable color logic of Ben and while with the first simple one pully mixer of my Wave 4,5 m² I was not so happy as it was just way way to long...

The mixer of the firefly is with 80 cm pretty much what it should be and I started to be a fan of the very basic mixer adjustment with knots. I modified it just a bit as in my version now both the blue and the yellow line are running through the eye of the red line, this provides that even if blue or yellow slip over one of the red knots the setting will always fall back to what I call 0 setting. Furthermore the knots are so easy to handle that it would be possible to change them even in the water wearing gloves, after winding up the bar, which could be that I will use this feature one day. On the beach already done with gloves in less than a minute for both sides.

Flysurfers Mixer for sure is much more clean and precise but no chance to set it up in the water or with gloves.

Apart from a more clear color system for ConceptAir it would be nice to have a 0-setting with all line length of mixer equal as used by Flysurfer and others since many years.

[tomtom]

Hi Horst.

I start to ride windwing and peak 3m unhooked with surfskate. /skateboard with much sharper steering/

Im thinking about using Tophat style pulley bar for unhooking riding as even 3m peak is "slow" turning unhooked for me. I mean pulley bars which old wave riders in c kites era used. These basicaly emulate powering kite while turning in way of hooked CL. They used as small as 30 cm bars back in the days with relative slow kites.

What do you think?

[stefFZ]

To get an idea of what is doable with a single skin on an hydrofoil (here a Firefly 2.5) on a reef wave (looks small but the camera flattens a little the height), Marc Blanc going down the line on big wing:



On the foreground, CA Wave 8.5 in light clothe (32 gr for the skins).

StefFZ

[Horst Sergio]

Hi Tom,
not sure which kind of pulley bar you mean, there are very many constructions, already build about 5 different pulley bars, but actually don't see any need.

Hi Stef,
yes if you have a wave there is just the pull you normaly could reach with a paddle and in combination with a wave, off you go. Also ride single skins with full floating boards some times unfortunately not yet in a wave. One of the secrets to me is to go unhooked and pump, even if it needs a lot of force similar when on a wingfoil. It lowers windrange of the small kites to nearly nothing.

After having tried the 2,5 m² Firefly with 13 m lines and the last shown mixer trimm, ...
I now think most likely I will stay with trimm nr. 4 and with 15 m lines. So inbetween what I tried till now alltogehter.

[stefFZ]

Here is top hat's pulley bar setting:

From top hat interview that I did some years ago http://www.lesfoilz.com/phpBB3/viewtopi ... =23&t=1255

One of the secrets to me is to go unhooked and pump, even if it needs a lot of force similar when on a wingfoil. It lowers windrange of the small kites to nearly nothing.

Marc in the picture above doesn't really pump but he uses very large wing (but he is a sort of an alien on a board). On a surfboard with the FF 4m, I didn't pump either (at least in the way you mean it) but I tested it on waves with a peak which were properly breaking, not just a rolling swell (this is also why I am not into hydrofoiling as in good breaking waves my surfboards work properly and there are still tons of things to learn + my surfing without a kite gets better .. and it needs to!)

Stef

[Jzh_perth]

Excellent video Horst. I especially love the unhooked riding with slack likes - proper wave foiling. Our regular downwinder is approx 10km among metropolitan beaches here in Perth, WA. Our waves are Lefts which suits me as I’m goofy too. I will try and demo a Peak 4 from our local shop - they have a few sizes available. I’m heavy at 95kg and would want to ride in 20 knot winds with the Axis S foil and 680 wing. I am thinking the 4 might be easier for me than 3, especially if it can still depower nicely.