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Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby mar menor » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:46 am

Anyone tried the new PLKB Nova in ultralight yet?

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby kitexpert » Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:30 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:46 am
More complicated does not necessarily make it a better kite and can actually make it worse. Look at some of the unnecessary things Flysurfer has done in the past like jet flaps and blowout valves. A paraglider does not directly translate into a kite either. A kite has a lot more to design for.
Horst Sergio wrote: It has some cons where it doesn't arrive at FS level, but some of them can be moded to FS level or close
For the money and considering the brand name you should not be needing to "mod" anything. You may as well buy a Pansh.
You can't "mod" a Pansh to a high level kite no matter what you do it, it is quite same as to try to convert Kia to Porsche. Adding spoilers and chip tune engine isn't quite enough :)

It is not known how complex and difficult kite (or paraglider) structure can or should be for maximal performance. Of course there is diminishing returns and manufacturing costs increase tremendously with complexity. However to think some 31 cell mid AR kite is the end of development is silly, it is just a compromise. Soul and Capa designs are above that level obviously. Adding performance is not only for race kites, it is very much relevant to mid AR kites too.

Of course if kiter don't care how kite flies or performs, if all he needs is some pull to the harness then simple kite will do well. Actually quite many kiters don't fly their kites.

Paragliders are quite a lot above kites by their design, of course they are much more expensive products.

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby NEkitesurfing » Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:43 pm

Only to mention!
This year Peter Lynn Kiteboarding launched a kite the NOVA with pretty much the same product description and marketing like the Duotone Capa.
For me the Duotone Capa description sounds a little like a copy of the NOVA description. A Foil Kite especially for Foilboarders that are not racing and that want to have a much more userfriendly foil kite for training maneuvers and which allows to expand the windrange of their foil.
The NOVA is lighter than a Soul and is available in an Ultralight version in the bigger sizes as well. Bar pressure is very comfy but offers still a great feedback in what the kite is doing. The bridles are relatively short and color coded. The NOVA performs excellent on a Foilboard and depending on the size can be 500 EUR cheaper than a Soul same size.

It is easy to feel the decades of experience Peter Lynn has in designing foil kites. Personally I love this kite on my freeride foilboard although I prefered tube kites before.

I'm very curious about the first comparisom of the PLKB NOVA and Duotone Capa.
https://www.peterlynnkiteboarding.com/p ... nn-nova-v1

Image
Attachments
NOVA_UL_Foto.JPG

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby foilholio » Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:17 pm

Nova looks good but... :desperado: no LCLs, uses orbit blocks, no mixer adjustment, manual talks about replacing bridle every 50hours and that the bridle stretches... very weird I have never seen a modern line used on a kite do this. I question if they understand the basics of design like how materials work.

I think I could not bring myself to buy a Nova just for the horrible website, I love the lack of video controls. Then there is https://www.peterlynnkiteboarding.com/r ... lity-check. Testing the stability of a foil kite with the bar in? LoL

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby NEkitesurfing » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:10 pm

foilholio wrote:
Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:17 pm
Nova looks good but... :desperado: no LCLs, uses orbit blocks, no mixer adjustment, manual talks about replacing bridle every 50hours and that the bridle stretches... very weird I have never seen a modern line used on a kite do this. I question if they understand the basics of design like how materials work.

I think I could not bring myself to buy a Nova just for the horrible website, I love the lack of video controls. Then there is https://www.peterlynnkiteboarding.com/r ... lity-check. Testing the stability of a foil kite with the bar in? LoL
Little connection line can make the trimming more complex and are not in any case working the way they should. I saw this on a race kite from another brand on the beach which was torn but had intact LCL's. Orbit Blocks are heavier but failsafe that is for the NOVA more important because it is not a Race Kite. The manual that came with my NOVA does not talk about replacing bridles every 50 hours. For the NOVA the durable Dynacore (sleeved Dyneema) lines are used and my bridles are still in perfect shape. Mixer adjustment is possible and PLKB has a video explaining how. I had no need so far to touch the mixer because my kite is flying great. :thumb:

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby mgs » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:17 pm

@NEKitesurfing - I was of the understanding that LCL’s was a unique feature that only Flysurfer kites provided and have always considered the concept a neat idea that provides the following benefits:

1.Acts as a fuse and will be of a lower breaking strain than the bridle line its connected to and designed to break first, thus preventing damage to the canopy.
2.Being able to replace bridles that have worn or show signs of damage that can be disconnected from the canopy instead of having to dismantle the speed system.

Yes, the Nova “Speed System” can be adjusted, there’s an embedded video within the PL website titled “How to Trim Your Bridles”
https://www.peterlynnkiteboarding.com/c ... ur-bridles

With respect to the “bridle” as per the manual, it quotes “Ideally you should replace your bridle every 50 to 60 hours of flying time depending on the intensity of use”
That statement perhaps needs further clarification.
https://www.peterlynnkiteboarding.com/s ... l-2020.pdf

I'm good with Ronstan Orbit Blocks,never had any issues with them just keep them clean,a quick squirt of “silicon” from time to time wiping off the surplus as required.
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby geokite » Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:18 pm

The 6m Nova I had didn't come with a manual, and the bridles were not color coded. And multiple emails to PLKB went unanswered.

The Nova felt faster than it should be for an easy ride foil kite. My Kitech FRS kites are much easier to fly, more stable, bridles tangle way less, and have better depower.

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby Matteo V » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:11 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:30 pm
You can't "mod" a Pansh to a high level kite no matter what you do it, it is quite same as to try to convert Kia to Porsche. Adding spoilers and chip tune engine isn't quite enough :)
Yeah, but Fiat could make a Porsche to the same specs, and that would be enough to compete, and NOT charge for slapping the Porsche logo on it. So you have made a statement of false equivalency. Pansh's issues are more with not straight up ripping off design, which is easy to do. Kites are just precisely cut and sewn fabric. Sticking Duotone or Ozone on the side is what adds $2500 to the end user's cost for your "Porshce".

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby Skywalker7 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:53 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:11 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:30 pm
You can't "mod" a Pansh to a high level kite no matter what you do it, it is quite same as to try to convert Kia to Porsche. Adding spoilers and chip tune engine isn't quite enough :)
Yeah, but Fiat could make a Porsche to the same specs, and that would be enough to compete, and NOT charge for slapping the Porsche logo on it. So you have made a statement of false equivalency. Pansh's issues are more with not straight up ripping off design, which is easy to do. Kites are just precisely cut and sewn fabric. Sticking Duotone or Ozone on the side is what adds $2500 to the end user's cost for your "Porshce".
If Fiat would be able to do that than they would have a brand like "Porsche" but they dont. But lets get back to foil kites. Just do a test. Count the number of parts on a Pansch or some lower aspect 31 cell foil kites and count the number of parts on a Soul. I would bet that a Soul is made ca. 2-3 times more parts, and actually it means 2-3 times of cutting and 2-3 times of sewing and compiling work. The reason for the many parts in case of a Soul, that when you want to make high performance kite with a relatively lower aspect ratio and having a good stability then the way to go is to use all the technology, and that requires more cells, rigifoil parts, 3d shaping, complex internal structure, etc. You can make a foil kite cheap with a simple structure and actually it might be an ok kite. To design a foil kite what is easy to handle, stable and still having a lot of performance that is quite a big challenge, and to sell a new kite for a customer who is an experienced kiter, the new kite has to be better than his previus kite. In many cases a poorly designed foil kites are not really better than recent tube kites. If you would execute a blind test on 10 experienced tube kiters and you would give them let say a Soul and a Pansh kite, then 10 out of 10 would choose the Soul. They would feel the performance difference from the higher jumps, bigger lift, better upwind etc. (I can't speak for a Capa because I never tried one but it looks quite close to the Soul actually.)

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby Matteo V » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:59 am

Skywalker7 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:53 pm
If Fiat would be able to do that than they would have a brand like "Porsche" but they dont.
So.....few things. First you do admit that it is just a "BRAND" here. That is just some name you pay more for. But the market cannot support Porsche prices in any more than the top end customers who are not as concerned with money as they are flaunting how much money they have. I mean, how many Porsche owners can even reach half the potential of that vehicle on a closed track. And that is still not even a purpose built race car.

Second, how do you know that Fiat is not able to meet the performance of Porsche? You know that "no drivin wannabe rich people" won't buy Fiat because they could not stand to be "seen" in one. "SEEN" in one as in "it is not fashionable". And it is because they are afraid they would not get the respect from people they expect. Again, noting to do with ability to drive.


Skywalker7 wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:53 pm
Count the number of parts on a Pansch or some lower aspect 31 cell foil kites and count the number of parts on a Soul. I would bet that a Soul is made ca. 2-3 times more parts, and actually it means 2-3 times of cutting and 2-3 times of sewing and compiling work. The reason for the many parts in case of a Soul, that when you want to make high performance kite with a relatively lower aspect ratio and having a good stability then the way to go is to use all the technology, and that requires more cells, rigifoil parts, 3d shaping, complex internal structure, etc. You can make a foil kite cheap with a simple structure and actually it might be an ok kite. To design a foil kite what is easy to handle, stable and still having a lot of performance that is quite a big challenge, and to sell a new kite for a customer who is an experienced kiter, the new kite has to be better than his previus kite. In many cases a poorly designed foil kites are not really better than recent tube kites. If you would execute a blind test on 10 experienced tube kiters and you would give them let say a Soul and a Pansh kite, then 10 out of 10 would choose the Soul. They would feel the performance difference from the higher jumps, bigger lift, better upwind etc. (I can't speak for a Capa because I never tried one but it looks quite close to the Soul actually.)
Lots here, but let me sum it up. Though I have very little experience with Peter Lynn kites, I did use other companies offerings in open cell kites back when the Venom's were still around. From Flysurfer to HQ to Ozone, I rode them all on the snow. I owned many too, from each brand.

But the best kite on the market back around 2012, was the HQ Matrixx I. Don't get this confused with the Matrixx II and later HQ offerings as those were not deserving of even having the same name. And the Matrixx I was the best kite on the market until the Chrono II came out.

But do you want to know the worst kite ever? It was the Speed series from Flysurfer. The flying speed and turning speed meant they were the slowest lumbering POS kites in the air. And given Flysurfer's undeservedly large market share in the closed cell market, they held back "demand based development", likely 5-10years. Why? Because just about anyone that flew a Speed series kite in the larger sizes thought that ALL big foils were slow and lumbering POS's. Then came along the HQ Matrixx I. HQ was the first to the market with a fast freestyle capable kite in the 15m size. Everybody wanted an 18m, or 21m in that kite because of how much faster the Matrixx 15m was than even smaller foil kites. H f---in Q did it! Now tell me how that one works. Luck? Yeah, i'd say so. But it had nothing to do with super complicated kite design. It had to do with "good kite design". Sadly, HQ moved away from that advanced highly capable design when they came out with the Matrixx II that felt exactly like a slow and lumbering Speed series Flysurfer. Thank goodness Ozone stepped in with the Chrono II.

So careful when you start claiming that the sonic or soul is the root of any advancement in large closed cell kites. That is pretty far from the truth, and Flysurfer is more to blame for the market waiting this long to get a good foil kite in 15-21 meter sizes.


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