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Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby Adventure Logs » Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:38 am

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:59 am

But the best kite on the market back around 2012, was the HQ Matrixx I. Don't get this confused with the Matrixx II and later HQ offerings as those were not deserving of even having the same name. And the Matrixx I was the best kite on the market until the Chrono II came out.

But do you want to know the worst kite ever? It was the Speed series from Flysurfer. The flying speed and turning speed meant they were the slowest lumbering POS kites in the air. And given Flysurfer's undeservedly large market share in the closed cell market, they held back "demand based development", likely 5-10years. Why? Because just about anyone that flew a Speed series kite in the larger sizes thought that ALL big foils were slow and lumbering POS's. Then came along the HQ Matrixx I. HQ was the first to the market with a fast freestyle capable kite in the 15m size. Everybody wanted an 18m, or 21m in that kite because of how much faster the Matrixx 15m was than even smaller foil kites. H f---in Q did it! Now tell me how that one works. Luck? Yeah, i'd say so. But it had nothing to do with super complicated kite design. It had to do with "good kite design". Sadly, HQ moved away from that advanced highly capable design when they came out with the Matrixx II that felt exactly like a slow and lumbering Speed series Flysurfer. Thank goodness Ozone stepped in with the Chrono II.
This right here proves you don’t know what the hell you are talking about. Please get out of the foil section, we don’t need your “arguing just to argue” attitude here. Matrixx a good kite???? Speeds are bad?? Wow :roll: :roll: :o :o

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby downunder » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:03 am

^

Here we go Mat. You are again embarrassing yourself.

RE-badged Fiat existed looooong time ago and it was named Abarth. If Fiat could do what Abarth did, then they would. Instead, Fiat bought them just like anyone else does in this industry.

Abarth competed with Porsche and Ferrari on FIAT platform. It won 29 races out of 30. Fiat did not. Abarth did.
That's like FS won all races on Pansch platform :) Or HQ platform.

Just because you did not like Speed doesn't mean everyone else did not. To use your own words be careful when claiming that something was worst kite ever based on your own norms. Or, to put it bluntly, if HQ was that good, they would not pulled out. Or FS would buy them, and use their IP.

And now we will have a long post dissecting all my words like a child...I just love how you dig yourself in that rabbit hole! Even your fellow citizens are starting to see you through. Good job!

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby Matteo V » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:53 am

Adventure Logs wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:38 am
Matrixx a good kite???? Speeds are bad?? Wow :roll: :roll: :o :o
First off, the Matrixx I was much better than the Speed series from Flysurfer.

Back to back:

Matrixx I 15m could be turned fast enough to overall outperform an 18 or even 21m FS Speed series kite.

Matrixx II 18m could not be made to outperform a 15m Matrixx I, nor a 14m Frenzy or 14m Montana VII.

Matrixx II 18m almost identical to a FS Speed II or III in performance, but slightly easier handling with the Matrixx II.



From '08 to '15, I flew lots of kites. For snow freestyle/terrain/halfpipes, the only thing that out performed the Matrixx I was the Chrono II, but the Chrono II was just a smudge touchier - though worth it if you are tuned into foil kites.

Flysurfer Speeds ruined foil kite perception for many, many years. Only when first HQ by accident, then Elf and Ozone, were there good high aspect fast flying and turning kites. And don't get me wrong, FS deserves much credit for the single skin thing, as Ozone seems to be copying that trend. Hopefully, we get some new advancements out of that.
Last edited by Matteo V on Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby Matteo V » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:04 am

downunder wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:03 am
Just because you did not like Speed doesn't mean everyone else did not.
Every single time I would be somewhere where the wind was super light, and someone would bring out a Speed in sizes over 15m, they would bitch non stop about how slow those kites turned and performed. We all thought that was the norm with a 15m or larger foil kite. Heck, that even drove lots of kiters to use 17m+ inflatables on the snow. And to the credit of tube kite designers, those 17m inflatables would run circles around the speed series if there was just 1 more knot of wind than needed to just get upwind.

When I first showed up with my new Matrixx I 15m, I would always be kiting circles around guys just struggling to keep Speeds up. Trading kites with them showed them the advantage of the Matrixx I. And I learned that I was no better than them - but I did have a kite that was (in a way) a forerunner to the Chrono II.

And never would I go back to a Speed, given the option for even a completely worn out Matrixx I.

Not once was the situation reversed from the mountains to glacial escarpments to the plains to the frozen lakes, until the Chrono II.

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby foilholio » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:47 am

Well well well look what is going on in this thread, so much misinformation!
NEkitesurfing wrote: Little connection line can make the trimming more complex
How? that statement makes absolutely no sense at all. LCLs allow you to easily replace or alter bridles, including LCL loops which are by far the EASIEST way to trim an entire bridle. But that is not the purpose of LCLs.
NEkitesurfing wrote: and are not in any case working the way they should.
LCLs absolutely work as they are intended. That is they prevent damage to either the bridle or kite from the bridle. I have had this proven to me about 50 times or more now. They however do not work when the strength of them are too high to preform this function. When flysurfer used solely the black and white LCLs they seemed to always work, when they switched to the pink ones then they may not work particularly with older bridles which lose a massive amount of strength like 50%, not to mention kite fabric can degrade in strength even more than that. Of note I think Pansh uses LCLs that are too strong and so do not function well or at all for the purpose of stopping damage, but they still allow easy access to the bridles and may be why they use them.
NEkitesurfing wrote: I saw this on a race kite from another brand on the beach which was torn but had intact LCL's
Ok but how did it tear? You can tear a kite in such a way that the LCLs might not be much help. Otherwise it is an example of the LCLs not being the correct strength for their primary purpose, like with the pink FS ones.
NEkitesurfing wrote: The manual that came with my NOVA does not talk about replacing bridles every 50 hours.
Well I downloaded it so. They also mention the same for the other water foil they have. Flysurfer in the past has made similar recommendation to the pulley line, which I assume is what Peterlynn is referring to.
NEkitesurfing wrote: Mixer adjustment is possible and PLKB has a video explaining how
It is not anyway what I would call adjustable like flysurfer has. You of course can also add pigtails etc to any kite, it is just nice that the maker has thought this out for you as most users have no clue. I do not actually like the Flysurfer system of adjustment or think it is the best.
NEkitesurfing wrote: I had no need so far to touch the mixer because my kite is flying great.
Well it is quite new, but usually the way pulley lines shrink compensates for the bridles shrinkage, so using things like the "Mixer test" will make a kite fly wrong. You will still have your depower reduced with a shrunk mixer and no manufacturer has, I think, a standard adjustment to fix that. Flysurfers advice is to replace the pulley lines, which will have shrunk also from sitting on the shelf....
NEkitesurfing wrote: Orbit Blocks are heavier but failsafe that is for the NOVA more important because it is not a Race Kite
They are heavier, bigger and less smooth, which all result in more tangles. It can not be overstated enough some of the refinement Flysurfer made to help avoid tangles or make them easier to undo. Flysurfer has actually made some steps backward like the uses of rings vs ELCs to connect lines to kite. This was to cater to users who swap bars on kites, another step backwards. There is things particular to foil kites that offer the best user experience, like leaving the bar on ALWAYS and have a bridle that from top to bottom tangles less.

I have not used orbits extensively but when I did they did not like sand either. To me, if a designer uses them it is just one of many typical design mistakes in this industry.
geokite wrote: My Kitech FRS kites are much easier to fly, more stable, bridles tangle way less, and have better depower.
It can be hard to believe but there is aspects about designing these kites so they tangle less, Kitech must understand this too.
Matteo V wrote:So you have made a statement of false equivalency.
Logic, it's like the rarest thing in the word to day!
Matteo V wrote: Pansh's issues are more with not straight up ripping off design
This accusation gets thrown at Pansh often and by many and I can see why. The truth is they have designs like the A15 which have no similar in the market. Also individual ideas like magnetic blow off valves never seen either. They have some obvious copying like LCLs, ELCs and even the same pulleys FS uses. I would think it is possible they copy but the direct evidence is not really solid. They could copy from prototypes, which is quite likely, but they do seem to have originality and there is a progression in their designs like Aurora 1 to 2 to 3. You look at China as a whole and though copying has been standard there is some original things coming out.
Skywalker7 wrote: Count the number of parts on a Pansch or some lower aspect 31 cell foil kites and count the number of parts on a Soul. I would bet that a Soul is made ca. 2-3 times more parts, and actually it means 2-3 times of cutting and 2-3 times of sewing and compiling work.
I might do this exercise if I have time. But as some one who owns both and been inside both I can say the part count is very similar from a glance. Pansh sew work is not to the same level as FS and material not as good, but what do you expect for less than 1/5th to 1/10th the cost of a Flysurfer?

Cutting is usually done by robot, labor is still quite cheap, those are not the reasons Pansh are cheaper. The majority of excess cost in a kite like a Flysurfer is 1st from the retailer, 2nd the wholesaler and then operations for Flysurfer other than from making of the actual kites. Things like marketing I think looking at Best can really destroy these companies cashflow. Pro riders can be very bad for kite companies, there is the financial drain but also they can direct the products away from what is best for the people buying them. One example is to look at chicken loops and how few people actually unhook. Basically the entire industry has been pulled down a road that nobody uses! Designers get all the feed back from pros which becomes impossible to design outside of because there is no feedback to do so. It seems only when you have the designers themselves actually the ones interested in the gear do things actually move anywhere interesting, like with Greg from BRM and I would say Armin from Flysurfer but more from him in the earlier years.
Skywalker7 wrote: If you would execute a blind test on 10 experienced tube kiters and you would give them let say a Soul and a Pansh kite, then 10 out of 10 would choose the Soul.
Not if you included price in that test. The design of the kite is one thing but not everything. People in the real world have budgets and Pansh even if it say only flies 80% as well as the Soul is incredibly attractive at like 1/5th the price. Flysurfer soul 21m @$2,649 vs Pansh Aurora3 21m @$499. And saying the Aurora3 is 80% the Soul is I think quite unfair to the Aurora. In my experience Pansh can approach 90% the performance of a Flysurfer.
Matteo V wrote: HQ was the first to the market with a fast freestyle capable kite in the 15m size
Not even remotely true, FS had the Pyscho4 in 2008 and the Psycho3 before that. The matrix is most closely to the Psycho series and the Psycho4 is more advanced than basically any foil kite bar the Speed4 aka Psycho5. If the Pyscho 4 was updated with all the modern bits it could make a killer kite.

What foil kites today can do this?


Matteo V wrote: Flysurfer is more to blame for the market waiting this long to get a good foil kite in 15-21 meter sizes.
I do agree that flysurfer can make kites too slow, though with reason, but it is a bit harsh to level that against them, they have done a lot for foil kites.
Adventure Logs wrote:Matrixx a good kite???? Speeds are bad??
There is arguments for both those statements, don't be too quick to slam him. I think they are both good, but you need to look at use and maybe the condition of the kite.
Matteo V wrote:From '08 to '15, I flew lots of kites.
Pyscho4?

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby jakemoore » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:16 am

kitexpert wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:30 pm
foilholio wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:46 am
For the money and considering the brand name you should not be needing to "mod" anything. You may as well buy a Pansh.
You can't "mod" a Pansh to a high level kite no matter what you do it, it is quite same as to try to convert Kia to Porsche. Adding spoilers and chip tune engine isn't quite enough :)
I'm thinking is more more getting a Tata Nano or Lada Riva, taking the muffler off and buying a K&N air filter to get a boost in HP. Kia makes a decent commodity car that will still never be a Porsche.

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby Matteo V » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:57 pm

foilholio wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:47 am
Matteo V wrote: Pansh's issues are more with not straight up ripping off design
This accusation gets thrown at Pansh often and by many and I can see why. The truth is they have designs like the A15 which have no similar in the market. Also individual ideas like magnetic blow off valves never seen either. They have some obvious copying like LCLs, ELCs and even the same pulleys FS uses. I would think it is possible they copy but the direct evidence is not really solid. They could copy from prototypes, which is quite likely, but they do seem to have originality and there is a progression in their designs like Aurora 1 to 2 to 3. You look at China as a whole and though copying has been standard there is some original things coming out.
I'm saying that Pansh NEEDS to start ripping off kite designs that other companies have discontinued! Like your old Psycho 3? Pansh will make a kite in the colors you choose to the design spec of the old Psycho 3. Like your old Best Bullaroo? Pansh will make a kite in the colors of your choice to those specs. Like the HQ Matrixx 1?......and so on.

Lots of companies have hit the nail on the head and come out with a perfect kite model/year/version. Then the next year they change it and leave those who purchased a new one looking for a new brand. This is a market that has virtually no businesses servicing it. That's the Pansh I want.

And to those that say it will hurt extablished kite companies??? Well, screw them if they keep "de-improving" kites that were the best they could be. Because it is all about COREporate sales and bs that they can get away with in an effort to make us think we need the "newest/latest/most expensive" so they can line their pockets.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for profit. I'd just like a little more focus on good products - NOT JUST NEW MORE EXPENSIVE ONES!



foilholio wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:47 am
Matteo V wrote: HQ was the first to the market with a fast freestyle capable kite in the 15m size
Not even remotely true, FS had the Pyscho4 in 2008 and the Psycho3 before that. The matrix is most closely to the Psycho series and the Psycho4 is more advanced than basically any foil kite bar the Speed4 aka Psycho5. If the Pyscho 4 was updated with all the modern bits it could make a killer kite.
The bit in red is the biggest mistake that a kite company can make. There is no better way to PO it's customers than completely changing a model, but keeping the same name. And it is marketing suicide. Given that the Speed series for the 1st 3 versions were slow and lumbering mowing the lawn kites, why would anyone shell out that much money for more of the same? And HQ even did that to me with the Matrixx II & III. Actually since my 18m HQ Matrixx II, I have not even purchased another HQ kite myself.

But the real root of the cause is all the hype that surrounded the upgrade from the Speed 2 to the Speed 3 deluxe. Even I said it was a huge improvement when I flew those back to back. But in reality, it was not. Compared to the Matrixx I, the Speed 2 and 3 were pretty much the same slow and lumbering kites. And in the back of the head of the guys that I knew who purchased the Speed 3 in the deluxe fabric, they just wanted to stop there as their experience "mowing the lawn", just did not justify ever upgrading to a more expensive "lawn mower".






foilholio wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:47 am
Matteo V wrote: Flysurfer is more to blame for the market waiting this long to get a good foil kite in 15-21 meter sizes.
I do agree that flysurfer can make kites too slow, though with reason, but it is a bit harsh to level that against them, they have done a lot for foil kites.
But the main point is still that Flysurfer dominated the light wind market with the Speed series. But that kite was not a good experience for most of it's users. And because FS never made a marketable successor to it (Ozone and Elf had to do that), we lost lots of potential foil kiters who became inflatable kiters. And it almost got me too.

And what reason is there to "make a kite slow" for light wind? I can see it for beginners, but not really in light wind.


P.S. The 18m Matrixx II is a perfect beginner kite that I can loan to anyone. But beginners have a nightmare of a time in the same winds with the 15m Matixx I.
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby foilholio » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:51 am

Matteo V wrote: I'm saying that Pansh NEEDS to start ripping off kite designs that other companies have discontinued!
Why discontinued? Other kite companies rip off current models all the time. A Peak 4 or Soul from Pansh would sell like hot cakes. This is further evidence to me that Pansh is not ripping off designs. It would be far easier than what they are currently doing to just buy a kite, pull all the seams, measure and make. Flysurfer even gives all the bridle lengths in line plans for anyone.
Matteo V wrote:Like your old Psycho 3?
The A15 is already way better than a Psycho 3. I have purely for my own interest done some quite radical things to change it like remove a whole bridle row, it revealed quite some improvement, which to me shows the validity of the 3 bridle row kite design and that the A15 with some slight redesign can be an even better kite.

But I completely agree that they could copy, if they did and did it well they would sink the water kite market exactly like they did the land kite market. I really couldn't care about most other kite companies, they seem to only care about names, kite colors and click bars. I want affordable smart designs and not a 1000 chicken loops to choose from.
Matteo V wrote: Lots of companies have hit the nail on the head and come out with a perfect kite model/year/version. Then the next year they change it and leave those who purchased a new one looking for a new brand. This is a market that has virtually no businesses servicing it. That's the Pansh I want.
I feel for you, Flysurfer can make any previous model if you ask. I though would love a Soul or Peak 4 but I can't support the retail model and their prices. I am sure if you sent Pansh a kite they could do this.
Matteo V wrote: The bit in red is the biggest mistake that a kite company can make. There is no better way to PO it's customers than completely changing a model, but keeping the same name. And it is marketing suicide.
I want to say it came from their marketing people, either way it was incredibly stupid. The next stupid thing is they stopped developing it past only an 8 and 10m and then switched it for a completely different kite under the SAME name. Huge wtf going on with that branding, I was ready to drop the 1000's as soon as the 15 and 6 came out.
Matteo V wrote: But the real root of the cause is all the hype that surrounded the upgrade from the Speed 2 to the Speed 3 deluxe. Even I said it was a huge improvement when I flew those back to back. But in reality, it was not. Compared to the Matrixx I, the Speed 2 and 3 were pretty much the same slow and lumbering kites. And in the back of the head of the guys that I knew who purchased the Speed 3 in the deluxe fabric, they just wanted to stop there as their experience "mowing the lawn", just did not justify ever upgrading to a more expensive "lawn mower".
Having flown both a lot, the Speed3 was a huge step forward in user friendliness, it however lost quite some performance that the speed 2 had. Flysurfer definitely has made slower kites in the past. They would have their reasons for it, one is thicker kites are more stable but also most kite designers fall under some sort of aerodynamic education that thicker airfoils are better, for the same reason they stupidly stick thick tubes on kites. Flysurfer for a long time stuck those jetflaps aka holes in their wings on their kites. I think much of the kite design industry needs a better education. Aerodynamics is a horribly misinformed area I would not be surprised today if that many schools still teach incorrect theory around it.
Matteo V wrote: But the main point is still that Flysurfer dominated the light wind market with the Speed series. But that kite was not a good experience for most of it's users.
I think generally they were good kites, they could have been better. The triple depower technology like in the Psycho 4 and Speed 3 can go quite wrong when the bridles are not close to correct. Flysurfer unfortunately with their mixer adjustment system and advice to level it actually made the problem worse! and then they would also lose depower range and have no adjustment to correct, and today it is still like that. All that I saw of people complaining about flysurfer kites was from kites that had become bad from the bridles going out of order. I have come up with many solutions to that but after so many years I think I have finally a quite permanent solution which is to measure the bridle as it is shrunk and adjust from that. Seems quite obvious and it's what works for the main lines too, that is to adjust them and eventually they just settle at a shrunk length. I think flysurfer has made quite some advancements in designing for shrinkage and now aswell tell people to use the LMT or long mixer test as standard. The Soul even has marks to make the LMT easy. I though still to this day have never done a LMT. I have adjusted for most every bridle on the kite and have now something called the Full Mixer Test FMT which corrects for all the bridles on the kite. Personally I find foil kites quite straight forward to adjust. I now recognize that the main impediment to seeing foil kites that way is how flysurfer goes about with it's adjustments. For that I would give them criticism. Adjusting Z is the primary adjustment and likely only adjustment most people should do, which flysurfer doesn't have. They also have a system of adjusting C that alters B, which makes things more complicated. I have ideas for better mixers, hopefully some companies can do the same, they are not complicated things.

I would be surprised if you came to your dislike of the Speed kites having flown new ones with the bridles correct?
Matteo V wrote: And what reason is there to "make a kite slow" for light wind? I can see it for beginners, but not really in light wind.
You are correct, for a bigger kite as well it can remain stable with a thinner airfoil. The kite designers would have it as a reason they use the thick airfoil because it suits the slower air speed, they miss that kites are on lines and can fly at a speed that is independent of a rider and that a kite being able to fly faster is how it can have increased performance and range. Many, maybe most kites are slow in this regard and I would say Flysurfers too. Look at the CA wave for example, a thin airfoiled low aspect ratio kite, which gets many of it's nice qualities because it is thin and fast.
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby queneseb » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:03 pm

NEkitesurfing wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:43 pm
Only to mention!
This year Peter Lynn Kiteboarding launched a kite the NOVA with pretty much the same product description and marketing like the Duotone Capa.
For me the Duotone Capa description sounds a little like a copy of the NOVA description. A Foil Kite especially for Foilboarders that are not racing and that want to have a much more userfriendly foil kite for training maneuvers and which allows to expand the windrange of their foil.
The NOVA is lighter than a Soul and is available in an Ultralight version in the bigger sizes as well. Bar pressure is very comfy but offers still a great feedback in what the kite is doing. The bridles are relatively short and color coded. The NOVA performs excellent on a Foilboard and depending on the size can be 500 EUR cheaper than a Soul same size.

It is easy to feel the decades of experience Peter Lynn has in designing foil kites. Personally I love this kite on my freeride foilboard although I prefered tube kites before.

I'm very curious about the first comparisom of the PLKB NOVA and Duotone Capa.
https://www.peterlynnkiteboarding.com/p ... nn-nova-v1

Image

Well, it's me on the pics :thumb:

Feel free to ask everything on the PLKB nova, but on the good thread 8)

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby kitexpert » Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:19 pm

foilholio wrote: You are correct, for a bigger kite as well it can remain stable with a thinner airfoil. The kite designers would have it as a reason they use the thick airfoil because it suits the slower air speed, they miss that kites are on lines and can fly at a speed that is independent of a rider and that a kite being able to fly faster is how it can have increased performance and range. Many, maybe most kites are slow in this regard and I would say Flysurfers too. Look at the CA wave for example, a thin airfoiled low aspect ratio kite, which gets many of it's nice qualities because it is thin and fast.
There is some advantages with "thick" airfoils but it should be first defined what is considered thick or thin or normal.

No one wants to make big kites slow intentionally, they become slow because they are so big. Also rider weight very easily limits L/D making big kite fly slowly: if you give a Speed 21m kite to a 120lb person it just floats around, drags downwind and turns very poorly. For a 240lb strong guy it is very different case: he can turn, go upwind and jump decent jumps with it.

To get good stability, depower and user friendliness also make kite a bit less performant, it is all about making a good compromise. FS has done it best for a long period of time, however nowadays there is many other good foil kites available.

IDK how thick or thin airfoil CA Wave kite has but most important explanation for its behavior is its small size. Low aspect small foil kite is the easiest kite type there is. But if that kind of kite was made say 12m -15m size it would totally suck, low AR low cell count simple design is just not enough any more. All small kites fly and turn fast, no matter if they are thick or thin.


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