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Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

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foilholio
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby foilholio » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:22 pm

I like Matteo have flown many kites and I can agree that there is undeniably an advantage to faster kites. Not faster as in turning ,though that can be great for some things, but faster as in actual speed through the air.

Yes smaller kites go faster, but thicker smaller kites are slower than thinner smaller kites, the viron comes to mind. Maybe thick and thin are misnomers. The correct term would be low and high drag kites, to which the thickness of the airfoil is a large contributor. There are to me many examples of this but the principle is quite simple and that is the fatter something is the more resistance or drag it will have. Now it is not always as simple as that because some shapes can vary greatly how much drag they will produce and is why sometimes a foil kite can be much thicker than the tube on an inflatable. I would think though where the shape is similar then thinner is always faster. So for inflatables with tubes then thinner is always faster. You only have to look at thin carbon supported kites to see how fast they can go or the new high pressure thin tube kites.

We are not discussing cell count, but larger kites and light wind particularly benefit greatly from reduced drag. Increased cell count may or may not reduce drag, drag is not always as simple as that, things are 3D and not 2D. Weight does increase with cell count and that is an issue.

stefFZ
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby stefFZ » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:03 am

kitexpert wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:19 pm
IDK how thick or thin airfoil CA Wave kite has but most important explanation for its behavior is its small size. Low aspect small foil kite is the easiest kite type there is. But if that kind of kite was made say 12m -15m size it would totally suck, low AR low cell count simple design is just not enough any more. All small kites fly and turn fast, no matter if they are thick or thin.
I beg to differ 8) I asked Benoît to make me a Wave 12.5 and I have now tested it in good conditions. It works very very well ... very good upwind, good power, good drift for surfing, turns well for a 12.5 and huge depower. It is a very good kite. That was one of my missing sizes and I am very happy to have it (I now travel with CA Waves 4.5 / 8.5 / 12.5).

Image

I put some comments in the CA Wave thread already and you can find more here (in French):

http://www.lesfoilz.com/phpBB3/viewtopi ... =Wave+12.5

kitexpert
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby kitexpert » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:56 pm

stefFZ wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:03 am

I beg to differ 8) I asked Benoît to make me a Wave 12.5 and I have now tested it in good conditions. It works very very well ... very good upwind, good power, good drift for surfing, turns well for a 12.5 and huge depower. It is a very good kite. That was one of my missing sizes and I am very happy to have it (I now travel with CA Waves 4.5 / 8.5 / 12.5).

Image

I put some comments in the CA Wave thread already and you can find more here (in French):

http://www.lesfoilz.com/phpBB3/viewtopi ... =Wave+12.5
Ok, but that seems different design compared to small sizes. Like always with CA kites there is no decent pictures available so difficult to say more.

Personally I don't have much use for bigger foil kites with so low AR and frankly I don't know why anyone would need a kite like that. As a concept it is like a kite for an over weight beginner. For sure skilled hf rider can go well upwind with it etc. but in comparison it will lose against say mid AR kite like Nova (which is a well designed kite for a reasonable money).

stefFZ
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby stefFZ » Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:52 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:56 pm
Ok, but that seems different design compared to small sizes. Like always with CA kites there is no decent pictures available so difficult to say more.
Try and say what you think afterwards, always better for an informed judgment. This is what I do for kiting as the science of kite design is still full of holes (I am a scientist myself) and there is plenty of room for craftsmanship.
kitexpert wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:56 pm
Personally I don't have much use for bigger foil kites with so low AR and frankly I don't know why anyone would need a kite like that. As a concept it is like a kite for an over weight beginner. For sure skilled hf rider can go well upwind with it etc. but in comparison it will lose against say mid AR kite like Nova (which is a well designed kite for a reasonable money).
Again try ... I have the use for this kite, surfing. I am not sure at all that it will "loose" (as you said) against a Nova but a back to back test would be necessary. I have a preference for low / mid ratio kites for what I do and CA waves are a step up in waves against other mid-ratio kites. For other uses, that would be different and, FYI, it is not at all a beginner kite. For the little story, my intend for the Wave 12.5 wasn't for water but primarly for backcountry snowkiting as they are very agile and stable with an very large depower. It then proved to be very nice in waves too.

Just in case my words are misinterpreted, they are pretty friendly. I just totally disagree with what you say, nothing personal (I ride foil for nearly 20 years now, and lots of flysurfers during that period and I have no financial interest in Concept Air except that Benoît is now a friend) + sorry for the 'no decent pictures' as I prefer being on the water + no professional photographer who stares at me, only family and kids who take a look from time to time to check that everything is going ok.

Stef

PS: I knew when I answered that I will enter an endless loop :D ... but I thought maybe ... maybe ... not this time ... 8)

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby kitexpert » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:04 pm

For losing I meant primarly upwind and boosting performance. If low AR low cell count simple design kite would be better than quite sophisticated mid AR design I'd be very very surprised. About same as someone claimed his Kia wagon can beat Focus RS on track.

Kite shape tells quite a lot how it behaves. In last over 15 years I've used and tested hundreds of kites, all types and sizes. I don't remember a single exception: low AR kite is like a low AR kite, mid AR and race kites are also like they supposed to be. Of course some are better and some worse, some are simpler and some more technical, some are of better quality and some worse (short side note: FS>>Ozone in build quality, everyone who has repaired/made modifications knows this) etc. etc.

My criticism of pictures wasn't specific but general. It is almost impossible to find any clear picture of any CA kite, which shows more than there is a kite in the air and what color it is. On CA website I can see some pictures of simple open celled kites from 2013 and a slide show with distant pictures of unnamed kites, until it seized. I don't know any reseller of CA kites or never seen one - it is weird if they really are that good kites. Why people don't buy them, why all foil kites I see are FS, Ozone, HQ or PL or even Russian Elfs? Too expensive for what they are?

kitexpert
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby kitexpert » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:19 pm

Image

Copied this one here. There is some interest to see if Capa has this kind of design when better pictures are available.

foilholio
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby foilholio » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:23 pm

Kitexpert there are two aspects of the sport you don't seem to understand, being surf and ultra light wind. I do and for both the lightest and fastest kites are best. Surf will prefer lower AR though, but then for light wind the lowest AR is no good. If you are having trouble finding an example look at the peak 4.

As to why CA is not mainstream? They are a niche brand, selling niche kites (foils), and some niche models for surf. To be a top brand you should be selling tube kites and then have a strong focus on marketing, i.e. pros, topless women, videos and new colors and screen print every year. In that way you sell new kites. Those that kite the most generally do not buy new gear and are not swayed by the gimmicky crap from marketing people.

kitexpert
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby kitexpert » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:42 pm

In ultra light wind efficiency is more important than light weight. You can fly 360's in 2kn with high AR foil kite or just use a LEI with skis when there is some wind. I doubt neither is possible with a single skin kite, because they just don't fly well enough. Of course it helps when kite hangs in the air like a Peak but this is mainly for the passive stages of kiting, when something has gone wrong or when preparing to start etc. In surf staying in the air and good drift is for sure important, but again this is to make kite kind of obsolete when concentrating on a wave.

It seems like you foilholio appreciate when kite does nothing, I appreciate when kite does a lot. For most users ss kites are quite lame park-and-ride kites - don't get me wrong, they do it well - but they don't boost or give much power increase when asked to do so.

However now light weight LEI's are coming with new materials, they should be good for everything except old people (lawn mowers) and for racing.

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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby Jyoder » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:07 pm

I can ride in lighter wind with my high aspect 11m Diablo v1 than my friend can with his lower aspect 12m lightweight Pulsion, but I have to keep the kite moving, never parked.

foilholio
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Re: Duotone Introduces The Capa - Freeride Foil Kite

Postby foilholio » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:46 pm

kitexpert wrote: In ultra light wind efficiency is more important than light weight.
For what? What are you doing in light wind? Surfing waves? You just can't seem to get your head around being push by a wave at the kite till the apparent wind drops to 0 or even goes negative.
kitexpert wrote: You can fly 360's in 2kn with high AR foil kite or just use a LEI with skis when there is some wind.
And you can't fly anything in no wind.
kitexpert wrote:I doubt neither is possible with a single skin kite
360 on a single skin? of course they can.
kitexpert wrote: In surf staying in the air and good drift is for sure important, but again this is to make kite kind of obsolete when concentrating on a wave.
??? Um. If the kite doesn't stay in the air I would think it is a problem for any style. It is just surfing is the most demanding to this.
kitexpert wrote: It seems like you foilholio appreciate when kite does nothing
Why strawman me. Of course I like kites that do everything.
kitexpert wrote: However now light weight LEI's are coming with new materials, they should be good for everything except old people (lawn mowers) and for racing.
If you are hoping the economics of being a tube kite designer are somehow going to improve, you are more than just a little confused on exactly what effect making your product even more expensive will do to you.


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