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Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

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foilholio
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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby foilholio » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:51 pm

drsurf wrote: Imagine taking a hit in big surf, you're getting rolled and can't tell which way is up, just let go of the bar and the kite will have a good chance of not falling in the impact zone.
That IS how it works. The old ARCs where brilliant because of it. As long as the kite wasn't flying at the ground or too hard at it you could just let go of the bar and all would be fine. It took away what is actually a big impediment to wave riding which is being able to pilot the kite while being flipped and rolled in a dumped wave.
drsurf wrote: Of course the caveat is, as long as you don't lose any performance.
Well ARCs where poor performance and sans any real bridles and I am not sure a bridled kite can do this well.
ronnie wrote: It could also help when paddling out through shore break, if the wing/kite would just hover above the waves as you paddled out.
Yes for anything you need 2 hands or to not focus on flying the kite it is very easy.
ronnie wrote: When it is flagged out on the 5th (3lines), it looks a bit like the inflatable foil wing kite, but with auto-zenith.
I have often thought a dihedral kite would be great for drifting as they self level.
ronnie wrote:Does this count as auto-zenithing on the leash?
Maybe. A wing having dihedral will do that. I wonder if on 2 lines though it would still or would turn up from the 3 or 9 oclock. I wonder as well with some basic bridles how that wing shape would go as a kite.

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby SWO_kite » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:28 pm

foilholio wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:27 am
You sir are an ignorant idiot. I suggest you stop using the internet as it is obviously a crutch for your ego.
Aww, but I'm your idiot :heartface: :kiss: Furthermore, I'll acknowledge that my previous post was antagonistic and was emotionally fueled criticism that was presented in an unproductive format. So, sorry if I've offended you personally.

To be clear, I'm not against innovation. Mr Bruno may discover and push other elements of kite technology while trying to implement this concept and I think that's great.

Now lets get to my opinion - I'm just really not a fan of concepts and solutions that when rolled out, allows a user of a given task or system, to essentially absolve themselves from having to complete the learning/training that is required to be an effective and reliable user. We see this all the time on the road with modern day vehicles. So many great innovations that improve safety, responsiveness and accessibility that are, more often than not, used so frequently that the users don't feel the need to complete their understanding and training of how to operate their vehicle in it's entirety or without the driving aids.

We can all agree that kiteboarding is becoming more popular every year. We would also mostly agree that a lot of people who start to learn kiteboarding try to skip steps and exhibit overconfidence during the early years. Now lets consider that we add in a kite that basically 'auto flies' if the user were to let go of the bar. Do you think that the new riders who are using this technology are likely to want a kite that doesn't 'auto fly' once they reach a stage of their progression where it would be wise to stop using it? Maybe they will and maybe they won't, its hard to say. But my feelings are that they won't - and so that's why I'm convinced that this type of kite will promote new riders to think they don't need further learning and training because the kite will do it for them.

I guess I just see this 'autozenith' concept as an innovation aimed at people who want/need it, but will be abused by people who don't.

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby edt » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:50 pm

autozenith is easy to do, you put the center of mass behind the center of pull. On a foil kite that happens pretty easily on a tube kite it's really hard without changing the properties of the kite a lot because you have so much mass in the leading edge. I say good for him, but I don't see how you can do this without severely impacting performance. You can't cheat physics and there's a lot of weight in the leading edge.

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby nixmatters » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:59 pm

edt wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:50 pm
autozenith is easy to do, you put the center of mass behind the center of pull. On a foil kite that happens pretty easily on a tube kite it's really hard without changing the properties of the kite a lot because you have so much mass in the leading edge. I say good for him, but I don't see how you can do this without severely impacting performance. You can't cheat physics and there's a lot of weight in the leading edge.
Here comes Aluula! I'm quite certain Bruno is talking to them also for his HPK concept.
Pls don't start me on how you sticht a 60+ psi LE seam. There are ways to do it.

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby foilholio » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:33 am

I think HPK and Aluula are a perfect match.
SWO_kite wrote: Aww, but I'm your idiot :heartface: :kiss: Furthermore, I'll acknowledge that my previous post was antagonistic and was emotionally fueled criticism that was presented in an unproductive format. So, sorry if I've offended you personally.
You didn't offend me, I am just disappointed at what you typed. It feels to me clear you haven't used a kite like an ARC where as I have. I am also a good kiter and can fly a kite blind, and think that Autozenith is good.
SWO_kite wrote: Now lets get to my opinion - I'm just really not a fan of concepts and solutions that when rolled out, allows a user of a given task or system, to essentially absolve themselves from having to complete the learning/training that is required to be an effective and reliable user. We see this all the time on the road with modern day vehicles. So many great innovations that improve safety, responsiveness and accessibility that are, more often than not, used so frequently that the users don't feel the need to complete their understanding and training of how to operate their vehicle in it's entirety or without the driving aids.
Definitely but then people don't cover the basics with kites as they generally are now. Autozenith is a tool, used right or wrong it allows other things. me even with my reasonable skill will still end up with a kite in the water after some waves, it's rare but happens. I see this all the time from most riders though. With autozenith it practically never happens, think of all the potential trouble and damage to gear it prevents.
SWO_kite wrote: We can all agree that kiteboarding is becoming more popular every year. We would also mostly agree that a lot of people who start to learn kiteboarding try to skip steps and exhibit overconfidence during the early years. Now lets consider that we add in a kite that basically 'auto flies' if the user were to let go of the bar. Do you think that the new riders who are using this technology are likely to want a kite that doesn't 'auto fly' once they reach a stage of their progression where it would be wise to stop using it? Maybe they will and maybe they won't, its hard to say. But my feelings are that they won't - and so that's why I'm convinced that this type of kite will promote new riders to think they don't need further learning and training because the kite will do it for them.

I guess I just see this 'autozenith' concept as an innovation aimed at people who want/need it, but will be abused by people who don't.
You are correct in your thinking, except that we live in a free world and people are so free to choose these things for themselves. If Autozenith sees people end in more trouble for it and restricted because of the kites that have it then that is their problem isn't it? I think overall it will be good, learning things is steps is the best way to learn. After all you do not skip to start college when you are 6, do you? A kite that flys itself relieves the rider to focus on other things allowing quicker progression.

This type of kite does not relieve you from having to learn the more advanced aspects of kiting. It just relieves an aspect of kiting which is flying the kite at zenith or parking it there. It adds a complication that while riding you need to steer a kite down and not up. It makes waveriding, chatting, focusing on something in the water stopped like putting a board on, using two hands and many other things much easier.

I have to say in the eyes of many people who don't have or have used an autozenith kite, much of what people do with them can look like abuse. Such as tying them to cars or standing around chatting with no hands on the bar. It is not though and just using the kite as designed.

Thankyou for your measured and adult response to my somewhat childish words !
edt wrote: autozenith is easy to do, you put the center of mass behind the center of pull. On a foil kite that happens pretty easily on a tube kite it's really hard without changing the properties of the kite a lot because you have so much mass in the leading edge. I say good for him, but I don't see how you can do this without severely impacting performance. You can't cheat physics and there's a lot of weight in the leading edge.
I somehow don't think it is as simple as that. After all the center of lift is ahead of the center of mass on high depower foil kites. You just have to look at the A bridles position at about 9% cord and then the mass distribution of foil kites is fairly even with the center being at about 45%-50%. I know peterlynn did explain something like you said. I will have to dig up the article. My guess is the flexible nature of the kite has something to do with it. You could see with ARCs the tips would rotate to change AOA, top giving more lift and bottom giving lift up instead of down. Effect would push the kite back to zenith. Maybe the HPK because it is flexible can do this. I think flat kites and maybe bridles will prevent it. Scratching my memory hard, I think Peterlynn said something about the center of lift being ahead of the tow point... That would mean restricted depower.

Performance is a big question and I would think adding autozenith will affect something, likely depower... if it was easy and had no negatives it would likely be more common. I found it very handy.

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby PullStrings » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:12 am

You could go to lunch for 30 minutes without having to land your kite...hook CL to something you trust...and head out to McDonalds
Brilliant

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby JakeFarley » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:38 am

We had auto-zenith kites back in the 1960's - Diamond kites with tails. The tail stabilized the kite to stay up in the air without it diving and looping into the ground. Bruno's kite has a tail that appears to be inflated creating a turning moment to turn the kite upward to zenith. Great use of an old concept put to use in modern kite design. :thumb:

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby 14ToeSide » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:47 am

Turns faster, fly’s by itself and self lands!! 🤣🤣🤣

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby ronnie » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:55 am

foilholio wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:51 pm
ronnie wrote: When it is flagged out on the 5th (3lines), it looks a bit like the inflatable foil wing kite, but with auto-zenith.
I have often thought a dihedral kite would be great for drifting as they self level.
ronnie wrote:Does this count as auto-zenithing on the leash?
Maybe. A wing having dihedral will do that. I wonder if on 2 lines though it would still or would turn up from the 3 or 9 oclock. I wonder as well with some basic bridles how that wing shape would go as a kite.
The Duotone Wing is dihedral and doesn't self-level. It goes into an unstable figure-of-eight pattern of gradually increasing amplitude.

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Re: Bruno is developing an autozenith tube kite

Postby pmaggie » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:27 am

Great project. The only issue I see with auto zenith when learning is that sometimes it's better to let the kite crash than resend it to the zenith (with pull). Also, can happen the same problem of people who learn with the board leash, the are afraid for all their life to lose the board and can't get it body dragging upwind. Once you learn to keep your kite in the air I think you feel much more confident.


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