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Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

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dan_kan
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:56 am

S2000kitesurfer wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:30 am
I tried a 2:1 bar before modification.
It was absolutely terrible in comparison to the Jackomixer 👍.
yes,
2:1 bar is just 100% more depower throw, mixer 4:3 is 33% more, so it is not the same and not comparable to the camber changes.
Jacomixer seems has 50% more depower throw which is not so important to me but he also changes the profile of the wing. I hope that the profile deformation of the Minima will not cause unpredictable kite behavior. From the manuals of the foil kites seem the more the camber the less stable is the kite. Will see.
Last edited by dan_kan on Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:58 am

S2000kitesurfer wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:02 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:23 pm
HaylingBilly wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:46 pm
and the mixer has shown itself as an improvement over the Flysurfer design on this kite.
LoL no. It is quite a lot like if you put twice as big front chain wheel in your bike and then think now you can ride twice as fast. There is no reason why this "jackomixer" would be somehow specially needed for this kite. It is quite ordinary kite (yes it has some weird or suspicious design details and clumsy bridle) but really nothing special, just a cheap chinese mid AR foil kite.
But have you tried it 🤦.
You definitely talk the talk 🤣😉😘
No but I haven't tried many other silly things either. I've told why 1:2:4 mixer is so widely used in foil kites several times here - why is it so difficult to understand?

But if you like your kite to back stall, to make it turn pivoting (by stalling it), if you have short arms, if you like high bar pressure - then ok, use "jackomixer" or "turbomixer" or pulley bar or whatever, but don't claim kite will become better. It can be better by your opinion, most people very probably think it is not better. For example if you boost with your jackokite it will very probably stall during the jump, very nasty and dangerous behavior. If you prevent it then you will have empty movement when your bar is sheeted out.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:27 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:40 pm
kitexpert wrote: You are correct, or you don't need to wonder why it is difficult to understand kitekite.
I am trying to explain it well. What you are doing is just confusing the subject.
kitexpert wrote: Apparently he is not able to separate two things from each other 1)camber preset 2)AoA change function mixer offers, and what do they mean for kite and how significant they are.
No I understand it, you don't understand the camber evolution of the mixer.
kitexpert wrote: Then he gives advice like to loosen Z (and perhaps also C) even though those line rows are already slacking.
Just because they are slack does not mean they will always be slack. That is the point.
kitexpert wrote: Kitekite refuses to understand that kites don't have stability problems in high AoA's but in low AoA
Um I do understand....
kitexpert wrote: however then adjusting C-Z is meaningless or limits depower
sorry you are contradicting yourself. You said
kitexpert wrote: Then he gives advice like to loosen Z (and perhaps also C) even though those line rows are already slacking.
so how is it a slack line can limit depower?

It is quite sad to see you demonstrate repeatably you don't know what you are talking about.
kitexpert wrote:Adjusting slack lines to even more slack is just silly.
No not at all. Because of the camber evolution on these kites slack lines do not remain slack.

You know for someone who apparently has 15 years designing kites, you really seem quite stupid.
kitexpert wrote: Ideally all line rows should support kite at the same time
The most advanced foil kites do not function this way. So it would seem no that is not ideal....
kitexpert wrote: or be very close to support it when kite is fully depowered.
Only primitive foil kites function this way. I am guessing as this is what you understand this is what you design.
kitexpert wrote: Then C-Z may be slack and B almost slack, but immediately when bar is sheeted in line rows should engage and start support kite to turn it to higher AoA.
Weird you seem to be able to observe this but cant understand it.

On a well designed foil kite B will go completely slack too. I am guessing this is not something you have designed, otherwise you would have mentioned it.
kitexpert wrote: If for example Z is very loose when depowered it engages only late part of the bar movement.
Congratulations, baby steps you are getting there. I know after 15 years it's going to be tuff with corona breathing down your neck to make the rest of the way.

kitexpert wrote: This of course means B-C are pulled more in relation to Z, so kite has lowered camber during powering up which is quite opposite it should be.
Should be should be, are you autistic? kites have to be one way and can't be any other? I mean really, grow up, get on your meds or find another hobby.
kitexpert wrote: If B or C is looser than it should be kite will distort its shape respectively.
No shit it will distort it's shape, that is the point. But there you go with the "should be", kitenotexpert emperor of kite design, imperial dictator of what should and should not be.

You should stop typing and confusing people, because in spite of your 15 years supposedly designing kites you can't seem to understand some basic things about them. I would guess it is at the basis because of some misinformation that is and was common in the subject of aerodynamics.
kitexpert wrote: There is no reason why this "jackomixer" would be somehow specially needed for this kite.
It has a similar AR to the Genesis..... you are an idiot. But then you seem aware of that.
kitexpert wrote: It is quite ordinary kite (yes it has some weird or suspicious design details and clumsy bridle) but really nothing special, just a cheap chinese mid AR foil kite.
Nice things you have to say about a flysurfer kite.... you are a man of many contradictions. Tête de noeud.
:roll: :) Camber evolution of mixer, hah hah.

A15 doesn't have similar AR to Genesis and they both are normal sized and shaped kites. Of course both work well (within their capabilities) with usual 1:2:4 mixer.

You think now FS kites are primitive, Ozone kites are primitive? They all work how I explained, there is no single line in them which is slacking when you sheet in, neither their shape is distorted by slacking line rows.

Adjusting C-Z can make them also tighter, then depower is compromised. I'm not saying it is good practice, any more than loosening them.

I don't know any kite which would benefit by having decreasing camber when powering up.

To claim I am confusing people is a bit too much from you foilholio :D I always write clearly because it is my style and I understand foil kites quite thoroughly because I've worked with them for so long time. They really are not as difficult as someone could think after reading your posts. Also benefits from tweakings are much lower than you suggest.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby merl » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:13 pm

dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:56 am

2:1 bar is just 100% more depower throw, mixer 4:3 is 33% more,
What is the 4:3 mixer to which you are referring?

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:35 pm

merl wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:13 pm
dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:56 am

2:1 bar is just 100% more depower throw, mixer 4:3 is 33% more,
What is the 4:3 mixer to which you are referring?
I can not find the previous pic without mods, so don't include the red or green lines and puleys
mixer43.jpg
mixer43.jpg (71.47 KiB) Viewed 100 times

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kiteykitekite » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:41 pm

-
Last edited by kiteykitekite on Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

dan_kan
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:09 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:41 pm
dan_kan wrote:
merl wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:13 pm


What is the 4:3 mixer to which you are referring?
I can not find the previous pic without mods, so don't include the red or green lines and puleys
mixer43.jpg
Weird mixer, 4 pulleys on one side.... With out the green pulley it's ratio is Z10:C2:B1 !! That is with 6 rear line pulled, with 4 line its Z6.66:C1.33:B0.66
(without colored lines/pulley)
No, please calculate really carefully..The right calculation is a base to right conclusion.
in 4:3 mixer if we sheet out the bar 60cm we will move:
B 20cm
C 40cm
Z 80cm which is 80/60 33% more than bar throw
And still ABCZ is in line like in standard 421 mixer, so we do not change the camber, but with jackomixer the more we depower the more increase the camber.
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:39 pm

dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:09 pm
kiteykitekite wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:41 pm
dan_kan wrote:

I can not find the previous pic without mods, so don't include the red or green lines and puleys
mixer43.jpg
Weird mixer, 4 pulleys on one side.... With out the green pulley it's ratio is Z10:C2:B1 !! That is with 6 rear line pulled, with 4 line its Z6.66:C1.33:B0.66
(without colored lines/pulley)
No, please calculate really carefully..The right calculation is a base to right conclusion.
in 4:3 mixer if we sheet out the bar 60cm we will move:
B 20cm
C 40cm
Z 80cm which is 80/60 33% more than bar throw
And still ABCZ is in line like in standard 421 mixer, so we do not change the camber, but with jackomixer the more we depower the more increase the camber.
These pulling ratios make much more sense than those shown here earlier, and kite profile shape indeed is not distorted. (In jackomixer it is, unfortunately to wrong direction :roll:).
Drawback is this mixer is quite complicated.
Last edited by kitexpert on Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kiteykitekite » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:42 pm

kitexpert wrote: A15 doesn't have similar AR to Genesis and they both are normal sized and shaped kites. Of course both work well (within their capabilities) with usual 1:2:4 mixer.
No they are quite different kites. A15 is much more suited to Jackomixer than standard mixer. Cord length seems to be the relevant fact as well as bridle positions.

kitexpert wrote: You think now FS kites are primitive, Ozone kites are primitive? They all work how I explained
No I don't think they are primitive, and they don't work as you explained.
kitexpert wrote: They all work how I explained, there is no single line in them which is slacking when you sheet in
Of course they have lines that go slack, or vary tension depending on bar position and the kites position in the window.
kitexpert wrote:neither their shape is distorted by slacking line rows.
Of course their shape is distorted, they have camber changing setup so it is only possible for the bridles to align with the shape at one point, if it does ever which is usually not.
kitexpert wrote: Adjusting C-Z can make them also tighter, then depower is compromised.
You cannot possible have any idea what you talk about. Depower actually increases when Z is made shorter. We are talking about depower foils, not fix bridle creatures....
kitexpert wrote: I don't know any kite which would benefit by having decreasing camber when powering up.
And I don't know why you would bring that up? Maybe it is because you do not understand the way in which kites use decreasing camber? It's for part of the sheet range. The low AoA portion to increase stability.
kitexpert wrote: I always write clearly because it is my style and I understand foil kites quite thoroughly
This is a joke right?
kitexpert wrote: I've told why 1:2:4 mixer is so widely used in foil kites several times here - why is it so difficult to understand?
Because your are an idiot and there is nothing to be understood from you on this.
kitexpert wrote: But if you like your kite to back stall, to make it turn pivoting (by stalling it)
idiot, NO, wrong, not correct, thick head, idiot, wrong. Do you get it? You are wrong.
kitexpert wrote:but don't claim kite will become better
idiot, wrong, thick head, mo-ron. You are wrong, do you understand?
kitexpert wrote: For example if you boost with your jackokite it will very probably stall during the jump, very nasty and dangerous behavior
Stupid person, you don't know of what you talk of, you are an idiot. Is it clear to you?

I mean how the f*** do you even design kites? Do people pay you for it?
kitexpert wrote: If you prevent it then you will have empty movement when your bar is sheeted out.
I could keep going on with how stupid you are but it is really losing the point. The fact someone can call him self a kite designing expert and yet have such a narrow idiotic mind when it comes to kites, well it is no wonder the industries main output is new colors on kites... FFS please for the sake of the future of kiteboarding quit designing kites, you really suck at it.

dan_kan wrote:
merl wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:13 pm
dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:56 am

2:1 bar is just 100% more depower throw, mixer 4:3 is 33% more,
What is the 4:3 mixer to which you are referring?
I can not find the previous pic without mods, so don't include the red or green lines and puleys
Image
Yes Ratio is Z4:C2:B1. That is with 3 rear line pulled, with 4 line its 1/3 more. Interesting. You could apply it to the Jackomixer and have for 3line:4Z:3C:2B. Interesting how it passes 2 lines through the one pulley.
jacko432.jpg
jacko432.jpg (14.81 KiB) Viewed 61 times
You would likely need both the pulley lines attach at the same point on B.

dan_kan wrote:
S2000kitesurfer wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:30 am
I tried a 2:1 bar before modification.
It was absolutely terrible in comparison to the Jackomixer 👍.
yes,
2:1 bar is just 100% more depower throw, mixer 4:3 is 33% more, so it is not the same and not comparable to the camber changes.
Jacomixer seems has 50% more depower throw which is not so important to me but he also changes the profile of the wing. I hope that the profile deformation of the Minima will not cause unpredictable kite behavior. From the manuals of the foil kites seem the more the camber the less stable is the kite. Will see.
The Jackomixer is far better than a pulley bar. The ratio with line is for Jackomixer 4line:6Z:4C:2B and standard mixer 4line:4Z:2C:1B. So you can see everything is double except Z.
dan_kan wrote: Hi Guys,
Thanks to you I know now about another mixer mod - jackomixer. At now I have 2 foil kites Soul 10 and Minima 11. The first has less power but huge depower range and the second oposite. I tryed to extend the "max depower" of Minima (I understand max depower as a depower increase that i can use the kite in higer winds; it's not the depower throw). At now I have tested the "4:3" mixer which is the best compromise between more depower throw vs bar pressure. It extends depower throw at 33% compared to standard 4:2:1 mixer. To see how it works I created simple excel with recalculated BCZ positions (as below). But at the end I did not increase the max depower but only depower throw which is better for foiling for me with the Minima. Why "max depower" did not increase? Because the kite reaches his min angle of attack much faster, that's it, nothing more. So we have max and min power as originally designed but more available by extended depower throw at the expense of precision of power control. To extend the max depower I really believe that we have to increase the B position and C relative to AZ - creating more camber.. I have some idea to do that with the 4:3 mixer but It needs another pulley, and till now I didnt tryed it yet, so can't confirm.
The Jackomixer as a mod does not increase the depower, but changes the trim range to be shorter so the depower can be accessed easier. You can modify a mixer though to have more depower, by either lengthening B or lengthening the pulley lines. The camber the mixer sets and the depower limit should be separate, no need for one to affect the other.
PugetSoundKiter wrote: Yes, my schematic was just to illustrate the differences.
I tried to draw it clean to avoid crossed lines.
:duel:
You had it right except the wrong pulley line on top. The Z pulley line should be on top, the mod does not cross swords.

Image

dan_kan
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:03 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:42 pm
dan_kan wrote:
merl wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:13 pm


What is the 4:3 mixer to which you are referring?
I can not find the previous pic without mods, so don't include the red or green lines and puleys
Image
Yes Ratio is Z4:C2:B1. That is with 3 rear line pulled, with 4 line its 1/3 more. Interesting. You could apply it to the Jackomixer and have for 3line:4Z:3C:2B. Interesting how it passes 2 lines through the one pulley.
jacko432.jpg

You would likely need both the pulley lines attach at the same point on B.
Jackomixer is also increasing the Z move compare to bar throw by 50%, as i wrote couple post before, so i would not consider to apply 4:3 to jackomixer. With 33% more bar throw and pressure in 4:3 i feel I don't need more so 50% in jackomixer will be even too much. The only reason i will try and test jackomixer is the profile influence. I dont have time and energy to test all the mods so i created the simple calculation with simulation of the ~shape. Thanks to this I can compare to standard 421 and now I know that this is a good idea.
60cm.JPG


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