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Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

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kitexpert
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:05 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:42 pm
kitexpert wrote: A15 doesn't have similar AR to Genesis and they both are normal sized and shaped kites. Of course both work well (within their capabilities) with usual 1:2:4 mixer.
No they are quite different kites. A15 is much more suited to Jackomixer than standard mixer. Cord length seems to be the relevant fact as well as bridle positions.

kitexpert wrote: You think now FS kites are primitive, Ozone kites are primitive? They all work how I explained
No I don't think they are primitive, and they don't work as you explained.
kitexpert wrote: They all work how I explained, there is no single line in them which is slacking when you sheet in
Of course they have lines that go slack, or vary tension depending on bar position and the kites position in the window.
kitexpert wrote:neither their shape is distorted by slacking line rows.
Of course their shape is distorted, they have camber changing setup so it is only possible for the bridles to align with the shape at one point, if it does ever which is usually not.
kitexpert wrote: Adjusting C-Z can make them also tighter, then depower is compromised.
You cannot possible have any idea what you talk about. Depower actually increases when Z is made shorter. We are talking about depower foils, not fix bridle creatures....
kitexpert wrote: I don't know any kite which would benefit by having decreasing camber when powering up.
And I don't know why you would bring that up? Maybe it is because you do not understand the way in which kites use decreasing camber? It's for part of the sheet range. The low AoA portion to increase stability.
kitexpert wrote: I always write clearly because it is my style and I understand foil kites quite thoroughly
This is a joke right?
kitexpert wrote: I've told why 1:2:4 mixer is so widely used in foil kites several times here - why is it so difficult to understand?
Because your are an idiot and there is nothing to be understood from you on this.
kitexpert wrote: But if you like your kite to back stall, to make it turn pivoting (by stalling it)
idiot, NO, wrong, not correct, thick head, idiot, wrong. Do you get it? You are wrong.
kitexpert wrote:but don't claim kite will become better
idiot, wrong, thick head, mo-ron. You are wrong, do you understand?
kitexpert wrote: For example if you boost with your jackokite it will very probably stall during the jump, very nasty and dangerous behavior
Stupid person, you don't know of what you talk of, you are an idiot. Is it clear to you?

I mean how the f*** do you even design kites? Do people pay you for it?
kitexpert wrote: If you prevent it then you will have empty movement when your bar is sheeted out.
I could keep going on with how stupid you are but it is really losing the point. The fact someone can call him self a kite designing expert and yet have such a narrow idiotic mind when it comes to kites, well it is no wonder the industries main output is new colors on kites... FFS please for the sake of the future of kiteboarding quit designing kites, you really suck at it.
LOL. I'm not offended at all, actually it is fascinating to follow someone with so weird and different views. I think I now know how it must feel for those people who try to debunk flat earthers.

kiteykitekite
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kiteykitekite » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:20 pm

You haven't debunked anything. It is rather I who have debunked you and you who are the flat earther.
dan_kan wrote:I dont have time and energy to test all the mods
The jackomixer takes far less time than you have spent on this excel stuff.

kitexpert
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:30 pm

dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:03 pm
Target: Extend the range of the depower
I noticed above sentence in your diagram. Unfortunately amount of depower is not much related to mixers, limiting factors are how well kite tolerates low AoA's and how much L it then has. These depend on kite shape, line row locations and above all airfoil.
So more than depowering different mixers affect how kite reacts when powering up and how it turns. However also there kite itself limits max L because of the back stall.
Usually range from the lowest possible AoA to back stall can be easily covered with normal 1:2:4 mixer, using a reasonable bar stroke. Trimmer gives additional 20cm for depower. If kite is small or of high AR bar stroke often have to be limited by using short depower line - this means even 1:2:4 mixer is too effective.

dan_kan
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:35 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:20 pm
You haven't debunked anything. It is rather I who have debunked you and you who are the flat earther.
I suppose that this is not addressed to me
kiteykitekite wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:20 pm
dan_kan wrote:I dont have time and energy to test all the mods
The jackomixer takes far less time than you have spent on this excel stuff.
Yes it is true, I spend couple hours to build this, but with this I compared couple different ideas before decided to test 4:3, and most of others like 6:3:1 I gave up after simulation with out a change to the kite. Beside as an engineer i like to start from the math. Anyway, sometimes we can spent more hours finding solution on forums without success. Math always helps.
Last edited by dan_kan on Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dan_kan
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:45 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:30 pm
dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:03 pm
Target: Extend the range of the depower
I noticed above sentence in your diagram. Unfortunately amount of depower is not much related to mixers, limiting factors are how well kite tolerates low AoA's and how much L it then has. These depend on kite shape, line row locations and above all airfoil.
So more than depowering different mixers affect how kite reacts when powering up and how it turns. However also there kite itself limits max L because of the back stall.
Usually range from the lowest possible AoA to back stall can be easily covered with normal 1:2:4 mixer, using a reasonable bar stroke. Trimmer gives additional 20cm for depower. If kite is small or of high AR bar stroke often have to be limited by using short depower line - this means even 1:2:4 mixer is too effective.
I agree, this is why i stopped moding the mixer after 4:3 test. Only changing faster or slower the angle of attack will not increase or decrease the range of the depower. With the mod like 4:3 the designed depower range of the kite is only more accessible but with less power precision and more bar pressure.
But after calculation jackomixer it seems that it changes the profile through the bar moves. Please see the pics or check the calculation. the ABCZ is not in line like in stadard 4:2:1, or 4:3.
I dont want convince anybody. I will just test by myself.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:49 pm

dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:03 pm
kiteykitekite wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:42 pm

You could apply it to the Jackomixer and have for 3line:4Z:3C:2B. Interesting how it passes 2 lines through the one pulley.
jacko432.jpg

You would likely need both the pulley lines attach at the same point on B.
Jackomixer is also increasing the Z move compare to bar throw by 50%, as i wrote couple post before, so i would not consider to apply 4:3 to jackomixer. With 33% more bar throw and pressure in 4:3 i feel I don't need more so 50% in jackomixer will be even too much. The only reason i will try and test jackomixer is the profile influence. I dont have time and energy to test all the mods so i created the simple calculation with simulation of the ~shape. Thanks to this I can compare to standard 421 and now I know that this is a good idea.
60cm.JPG
Sorry Kiteykitekite, I might misunderstood your idea. I suppose your idea was to stay at +33% bar throw from 4:3 and take the profile influence from the jackomixer. If yes I will think about this if the mod will be quite simple.

kiteykitekite
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kiteykitekite » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:51 pm

No it is just an idea no need to try. Ratio is different 432 vs jacko 321 and normal 421. All will have different profile results. You can compensate to achieve the same profile at the same "AoA" but it will compromise other "AoAs"
dan_kan wrote:I suppose that this is not addressed to me
No.
kitexpert wrote: Unfortunately amount of depower is not much related to mixers
Idiot.
kitexpert wrote: These depend on kite shape, line row locations and above all airfoil.
You talk in ways that have no relevance to people that are using kites. We aren't designing kites from scratch here.
kitexpert wrote: Usually range from the lowest possible AoA to back stall can be easily covered with normal 1:2:4 mixer, using a reasonable bar stroke.
Not for all kites or riders, idiot.

kitexpert
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm

dan_kan wrote:


I agree, this is why i stopped moding the mixer after 4:3 test. Only changing faster or slower the angle of attack will not increase or decrease the range of the depower. With the mod like 4:3 the designed depower range of the kite is only more accessible but with less power precision and more bar pressure.
But after calculation jackomixer it seems that it changes the profile through the bar moves. Please see the pics or check the calculation. the ABCZ is not in line like in stadard 4:2:1, or 4:3.
I dont want convince anybody. I will just test by myself.
You are correct. IMO it would be better if your diagrams would start in neutral low (0) AoA position and then showing what happens when bar is sheeted in.

I earlier found out jackomixer decreases camber when powering up, this is opposite how it should do it. So, it pulls too much B-C (or too little Z). You wrote same thing from different point of view, noticing it increases camber when depowered. However when fully depowered mixer does not affect kite shape much or not at all so it is better to analyse what happens when AoA is increased, when kite is powered up.

4/3 mixer is so complicated I don't want to say what pulley ratios are. But if they are those numbers which are shown it is "linear" and usable mixer, if complexity of it isn't too much.

kiteykitekite
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kiteykitekite » Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:41 pm

kitexpert wrote: I earlier found out jackomixer decreases camber when powering up
You mean it only decreases camber? That would depend on the bridle positions, which is not on the kites I have seen. Given you don't believe in advanced foil kites with varying camber, I think that is the problem with your kites.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:09 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 5:30 pm
dan_kan wrote:


I agree, this is why i stopped moding the mixer after 4:3 test. Only changing faster or slower the angle of attack will not increase or decrease the range of the depower. With the mod like 4:3 the designed depower range of the kite is only more accessible but with less power precision and more bar pressure.
But after calculation jackomixer it seems that it changes the profile through the bar moves. Please see the pics or check the calculation. the ABCZ is not in line like in stadard 4:2:1, or 4:3.
I dont want convince anybody. I will just test by myself.
You are correct. IMO it would be better if your diagrams would start in neutral low (0) AoA position and then showing what happens when bar is sheeted in.

I earlier found out jackomixer decreases camber when powering up, this is opposite how it should do it. So, it pulls too much B-C (or too little Z). You wrote same thing from different point of view, noticing it increases camber when depowered. However when fully depowered mixer does not affect kite shape much or not at all so it is better to analyse what happens when AoA is increased, when kite is powered up.

4/3 mixer is so complicated I don't want to say what pulley ratios are. But if they are those numbers which are shown it is "linear" and usable mixer, if complexity of it isn't too much.
Yes I showed and simulated from different point of view because I think that we should test our mods by changing/experimenting with the mixer at front and rear lines from the bar equal and ABCZ in line after mixer section which means we have set the max angle of attack of the wing that was originally designed. With this start we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power. We only influence through the depower. Of course, as I supposed U mention, at the max depower the profile of the kite will not stay exactly in shape like in simulation, because at some point of angle of attack the forces above the wing will be almost "0" so it really hard to say how much or if the depower range extend. I have sent this excel to some brands in last year and I received little help - to increase depower I have to increase B relative to A or set the profile to more camber which will be less stable. The best way would be air flow simulation but without the proper knowledge is out of my range. So i will just test the jackomixer and will see.
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