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Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:13 pm

kiteykitekite wrote:
You mean it only decreases camber? That would depend on the bridle positions, which is not on the kites I have seen. Given you don't believe in advanced foil kites with varying camber, I think that is the problem with your kites.
Of course not only, main function of any mixer is to allow AoA change for kite. I think it was me who earlier explained to you how camber changes (or doesn't change) according to line row positions and certain mixer. However this is a kind of fine tune function, a small bonus which isn't at all a necessity in a kite.

Jackomixer decreases camber when powering up in practically any kite, it just pulls B-C so much or too little Z.

Only example of really meaningful varying camber is so called Turbo line which increases camber in high AoA. It has some relevance in hf racing in down wind legs, but many or most race kites still don't have it. I think it is quite a lot a matter of personal preference to have it or not.

Normal method where kite increases slightly camber when powering up (one third of late FS "triple depower" (more like power actually)) is only a small bonus like I already wrote. Many kites don't have it but none has it working to wrong direction, by decreasing camber when it should increase and vice versa.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:40 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:13 pm

Jackomixer decreases camber when powering up in practically any kite, it just pulls B-C so much or too little Z.
I think it's not..
When U exchange the mixer from 421 to any other U start with front and rear lines from the bar equal and ABCZ in line after mixer section which means we have set the max angle of attack of the wing that was originally designed. So its not important what type of mixer we use. With this start we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power. We only influence through the depower.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:44 pm

dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:40 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:13 pm

Jackomixer decreases camber when powering up in practically any kite, it just pulls B-C so much or too little Z.
I think it's not..
When U exchange the mixer from 421 to any other U start with front and rear lines from the bar equal and ABCZ in line after mixer section which means we have set the max angle of attack of the wing that was originally designed. So its not important what type of mixer we use. With this start we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power. We only influence through the depower.
No, you forget mixer is not in play at all if kite is depowered, or at least if kite is capable of true depowering. Then kite flies on A line row only or A lines and a bit additional support from B. C and Z line rows are loose. Kite shape is then what airfoil and low and top skins make it, a kind of "true" shape of the wing itself.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kiteykitekite » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:57 am

kitexpert wrote: No, you forget mixer is not in play at all if kite is depowered
Wrong there is degrees of depower, for which A B C and Z will play a part. The main bridles for depower are A and B.
kitexpert wrote: Kite shape is then what airfoil and low and top skins make it, a kind of "true" shape of the wing itself.
Wrong, kite surfing kites because they lack rigidity, like most kites, always rely on their bridle to create their shape in addition to other things. I am not sure if any inflate shape matches the bridles exactly, as too many forces are interacting.
kitexpert wrote: main function of any mixer is to allow AoA change for kite
No wrong again, your lack of knowledge is really showing.

The main and only function of a mixer is to alter line or bridle tension (or lengths) to the kite. Which in turn affects the kites shape ( or orientation). Which in turn affects the aerodynamic properties of the kite.
kitexpert wrote: I think it was me who earlier explained to you how camber changes (or doesn't change) according to line row positions and certain mixer
That is quite obvious. You have explained many things to me I already knew.

What is apparent in spite of me explaining things to you, you still don't know them. Cant teach an old dog new tricks it appears.
kitexpert wrote: However this is a kind of fine tune function, a small bonus which isn't at all a necessity in a kite.
You clearly don't understand this.
kitexpert wrote: Jackomixer decreases camber when powering up in practically any kite, it just pulls B-C so much or too little Z.
Not on any kite I know, but hey it is likely there is kites it won't work with well, this is already well understood.
kitexpert wrote: Only example of really meaningful varying camber is so called Turbo line which increases camber in high AoA.
You mean the diablo line. That is not the only, there are many. Like different mixers, wac line, kite bridle setups and more.
kitexpert wrote: Normal method where kite increases slightly camber when powering up (one third of late FS "triple depower" (more like power actually)) is only a small bonus like I already wrote.
No it is an extremely powerful use of the mixer, being the ability to alter a kites shape. The fact many kite designers may choose to only use it in limited ways, like changing the tow point, does not say anything about the capabilities of the mixers, but of the capabilities of the kite designer. We already knew that though, that kite designers are generally not of a high IQ and there primary abilities lie in graphic design and changing the colors of kites. I mean you look at the most famous kite designers and that is largely all they do. The facts they get kites to fly seems to be the result of guess work, not any fundamental understanding, though some of that may appear with time.
dan_kan wrote: which means we have set the max angle of attack of the wing that was originally designed
Most mixers usually have no problem reaching the desired max AoA. The jackomixer does not really change the achievable AoA but only the profile.
dan_kan wrote: which means we have set the max angle of attack of the wing that was originally designed.
The jackomixer shouldn't be a problem for the AoA. I originally thought it could but it relaunches fine. You shouldn't need to set the max AoA on most kites, only the min "AoA".
dan_kan wrote: With this start we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power. We only influence through the depower.
I get what you mean, and we have discussed this before on the forum. You would need to alter the profile to achieve the same profile at some AoA.
dan_kan wrote: I have sent this excel to some brands in last year and I received little help - to increase depower I have to increase B relative to A or set the profile to more camber which will be less stable.
Don't expect the "brands" to know much as they are winging all this. At the basis of any brand you have the understanding of the kite designer when it comes to kites. Well if you look at my arguments with a so called "kite expert" you should immediately raise flags about their knowledge, or maybe mine but I am quite certain of what I know. I have even had the much lauded Armin from flysurfer disagree with me, and since a long time, and still somewhat today. But he has come around, even asking my opinion on something. Not sure to what help it was, but he made a good suggestion I took, unfortunately I don't have time yet to try these things.

I will explain it again but you don't need to alter B to change the profile, and you shouldn't. You do need to alter B or the pulley line length to change the depower, but that doesn't mean you need to change the profile. You can compensate for any change in the profile caused by altering B by also altering C and Z. I will repeat B should not be altered to change the profile. The maximum depower is usually with only tension on A, it has been designed like that on any good kite. Altering B changes that. Most anyone recommending any changes to shorten B are ignorant to that fact. B should usually always need to be lengthened.

viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2392205

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby S2000kitesurfer » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:03 am

Simply the kite was absolutely useless for Hydrofoiling not worth wasting any money on .
But after the Jackomixer it's brilliant stable loads of depower drift.
You definitely wouldn't be able to do this and enjoy it so much 😍.
You guys can say what you want I love the Jackomixer so much I bought 4/6/8/12 genesis plus the ultralight 12m a15.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:57 am

S2000kitesurfer wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:03 am
.
But after the Jackomixer it's brilliant stable loads of depower drift.
Could you detail in which configuration it is more stable: sheet-out or sheet in ? And at zenith or during drift .
Do you have a prefered size ?
merci

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:21 am

kiteykitekite wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:42 pm
You had it right except the wrong pulley line on top. The Z pulley line should be on top, the mod does not cross swords.
Yes but no, 3 possible diagrams of the 3 Mixers:
3Mixers-A.jpg
3Mixers-B.jpg
3Mixers-C.jpg
All valid solutions, and many more :think:

We're both correct :cheers:

I do like the clean hollow pin pulley implementation when new, but those Ozone mixers are hard to fabricate and tune plus those pulleys jam with sand too easy. Flysurfer old school style mixers might not look as elegant but they are functional, practical and easy to tune and replace.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kiteykitekite » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:29 am

What are you doing? :lol:

You uncross the jackomixer but then cross the malabar! :lol: :lol:

LOL

Yes the hollow hub is a nice idea on pulleys. If I was to design a new pulley I would make it smaller and round with just the hollow hub and definitely lighter, maybe over cover the wheel so the edge can't wear the line, but then maybe it would jam. FS is working on a new pulley so hopefully it is something like that.

Once you understand you should only adjust BCZ separately, you will realize that the FS setup is not good enough. There is a number of other points that the FS setup is bad as well, like the lines are excessive, like the B pulley line is 2x too long, all the mains can be made shorter, main adjustment lines are way too thick. In fact Armin has a simple solution for the adjustment, which you could use what ever thin line you like for the mains. Hopefully he works out a better mixer like he is planing. I haven't had the time or need yet. I am waiting for something to break, bare dyneema kite line as pulley line does seem to hold on forever... surprisingly better than the other covered options.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby dan_kan » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:37 am

kitexpert wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:44 pm
dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:40 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:13 pm

Jackomixer decreases camber when powering up in practically any kite, it just pulls B-C so much or too little Z.
I think it's not..
When U exchange the mixer from 421 to any other U start with front and rear lines from the bar equal and ABCZ in line after mixer section which means we have set the max angle of attack of the wing that was originally designed. So its not important what type of mixer we use. With this start we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power. We only influence through the depower.
No, you forget mixer is not in play at all if kite is depowered, or at least if kite is capable of true depowering. Then kite flies on A line row only or A lines and a bit additional support from B. C and Z line rows are loose. Kite shape is then what airfoil and low and top skins make it, a kind of "true" shape of the wing itself.
We were not talking about the shape of depowed kite.
Just "Jackomixer decreases camber when powering up in practically any kite, it just pulls B-C so much or too little Z"
As I wrote if we keep front and rear lines equal before mixer section and ABCZ in line after mixer section (this is of course the max AoA for the foil) we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power. So keep oryginal max AoA and profile of the shape, ABCZ is in line. So how jackomixer can decrease camber if at max power the shape is original. And during depower throw jackomixer start increasing the camber as simulation shows. ABC is in line but Z is not. Everybody can calculate it in a couple bar positions to get the right conclusion. This is why i don't agree with U.

This is so simple, that if we can not agree with that there is no point to go further.
I'm leaving this topic,
Best regards

thanks S2000kitesurfer for o good idea. I hope I could try this mod in this year ;)
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kitexpert
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:57 pm

dan_kan wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:37 am
kitexpert wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:44 pm
dan_kan wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:40 pm


I think it's not..
When U exchange the mixer from 421 to any other U start with front and rear lines from the bar equal and ABCZ in line after mixer section which means we have set the max angle of attack of the wing that was originally designed. So its not important what type of mixer we use. With this start we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power. We only influence through the depower.
No, you forget mixer is not in play at all if kite is depowered, or at least if kite is capable of true depowering. Then kite flies on A line row only or A lines and a bit additional support from B. C and Z line rows are loose. Kite shape is then what airfoil and low and top skins make it, a kind of "true" shape of the wing itself.
We were not talking about the shape of depowed kite.
Just "Jackomixer decreases camber when powering up in practically any kite, it just pulls B-C so much or too little Z"
As I wrote if we keep front and rear lines equal before mixer section and ABCZ in line after mixer section (this is of course the max AoA for the foil) we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power. So keep oryginal max AoA and profile of the shape, ABCZ is in line. So how jackomixer can decrease camber if at max power the shape is original. And during depower throw jackomixer start increasing the camber as simulation shows. ABC is in line but Z is not. Everybody can calculate it in a couple bar positions to get the right conclusion. This is why i don't agree with U.

This is so simple, that if we can not agree with that there is no point to go further.
I'm leaving this topic,
Best regards

thanks S2000kitesurfer for o good idea. I hope I could try this mod in this year ;)
LoL you do agree with me, but apparently you still don't get it. If kite shape is "original" when powered up and it has increased camber when depowered in other words camber decreases during powering up. In real world your explanation will not happen, but in theory (by mechanics or geometry of jackomixer) you are correct.

My explanation of jackomixer decreasing camber during powering up is true also in practice and this is the main reason I've been so suspicious about it from the beginning.

I repeat, your method to start with full powered kite and neutral kite shape and then seeing what happens when kite is depowered is not realistic nor reasonable.

In reality when kite is depowered it goes to neutral shape because then bridle has no effect to its shape - because then depowerable kite is (ideally) supported only by A line row. So your earlier pictures of kite airfoil shapes for different mixers at depowered state are misleading. De facto they all will be same (if kite is true depowerable kite).

So this system of depowerable kite is not just geometry or simple mechanics, you must also understand how depowerable kite works. If line rows get loose (as they do) mixer type or pulley ratios are completely irrelevant.

Hope this helps.


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