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Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

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PugetSoundKiter
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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:53 pm

Good point, Z with no tension implies no tension to C or B. Of course there is some with line weight and drag.

I would be interested to see dan_can's simulations:

(1)
Full sheet out be the initial condition:
- Minimal Z tension
- Minimal C tension
- Minimal B tension
- The airfoil positioned at minimal lift to stay afloat
------- Angle of Attack
- Natural relaxed airfoil profile
------- Camber
------- Reflex

(2)
Half sheeted be the second condition:
- Z length pulled half in and airfoil TE pulled half the distance
- C length pulled the calculated distance
- B length pulled the calculated distance
- The resulting airfoil position
------- Angle of Attack change
- The resulting airfoil profile
------- Camber change
------- Reflex change

(3)
Fully sheeted be the third condition:
- Z length pulled half in and airfoil TE pulled the full distance
- C length pulled the calculated distance
- B length pulled the calculated distance
- The resulting airfoil position
------- Angle of Attack change
- The resulting airfoil profile
------- Camber change
------- Reflex change

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:44 pm

Just my 50ct.

For me no mixer makes sense on the water, where front (A) or back lines (Z) are not connected directly to their connection point.

Reason:
If Backtip not connected directly to Z, kite will not be able to start reverse
If front tip not connected directly to A, dangerous flip overs may happen.

Use 2:1 bar Instead
... or shorten Z until not so loose, if you want to do a looooot of tweaking...

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kiteykitekite » Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:36 am

Kiter_from_Germany wrote: For me no mixer makes sense on the water, where front (A) or back lines (Z) are not connected directly to their connection point.
Nice to see you back! Yes it would seem to make no sense and something like relaunch wouldn't work but it does. This is the perfect mod for the A15, you should try it. It works with the no C mod too.
Kiter_from_Germany wrote: If Backtip not connected directly to Z, kite will not be able to start reverse
Nope
Kiter_from_Germany wrote: If front tip not connected directly to A, dangerous flip overs may happen.
This mod doesn't change A.
Kiter_from_Germany wrote:Use 2:1 bar Instead
The mod is much superior to that. Effect at the kite is similar,but Z is affected only for 1.5x though. Tension in the rear lines massively increases which improves response and feel. It is much simpler with less pulleys. It really does make foil kites much more like tube kites. I predict you will see it used in new kites in the future.
Kiter_from_Germany wrote: ... or shorten Z until not so loose, if you want to do a looooot of tweaking...
Not at all, it works well on Pansh kites as standardly setup. Tweak is not really needed but only involves altering Z.
PugetSoundKiter wrote: Good point, Z with no tension implies no tension to C or B.
No that is not correct. When Z has no tension C,B and A still has tension. When C has no tension B and A still has tension. When B has no tension A still has tension.

I wouldn't pay attention to kitexpert he doesn't know what he is talking about.
PugetSoundKiter wrote: Of course there is some with line weight and drag.
They bow and would have little effect on the kite compared to when they are tensioned.
PugetSoundKiter wrote: Half sheeted be the second condition:
- Z length pulled half in and airfoil TE pulled half the distance
Z shouldn't be engaging until very late in the sheeting. This could vary though from kite to kite or setup. Say you could have a kite that engages all together, I just have never seen a kite like that. Advanced kites engage in order B then C then Z, to have the benefits of a kite that lowers camber while in some of the depower range, so either just B or just B and C are engaged, and then camber can increase when Z engages. You can setup so for all engage at once on these kites, but camber will be way too much! Fun to try though.

An important thing to remember is unless a line or bridle is tensioned i.e. there is no bow in it, then it is not really affecting the kite. When and if bridles are bowing is very helpful to understand and tune a kite.
kitexpert wrote: LoL you do agree with me, but apparently you still don't get it. If kite shape is "original" when powered up and it has increased camber when depowered in other words camber decreases during powering up.
No he does get it, it's you that doesn't which is sad but not unexpected because you are a typical low IQ kite designer. The mod has a low ratio, so camber rate of change will be less. If you have a desired camber at a desired AoA or sheet point you will then need to compensate by changing the length of Z to achieve it. One great thing about this mod is the ratios for B and C remain the same so you don't really need to worry about them. You could though as they are likely wrong on any kite.

This has all already been discussed though. It was quite obvious when knowing the ratios. Maybe people need to skim over the later parts of viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2392917 where the mod was first discussed here.
kitexpert wrote: My explanation of jackomixer decreasing camber during powering up is true also in practice and this is the main reason I've been so suspicious about it from the beginning.
Your explanation is wrong and you are suspicious because your are an idiot.
kitexpert wrote: In reality when kite is depowered it goes to neutral shape because then bridle has no effect to its shape
This is not correct. The kite always relies on bridles to give it some of it's shape. So depending on which bridles and how much tension remains depends how they affect the shape. So for example for much of the depower range A and B are the only tensioned bridles, at full depower only A is tensioned. The fact the bridles have such a big influence on the kites shape is why we can change AoA, camber and even projected area.
kitexpert wrote: If line rows get loose (as they do) mixer type or pulley ratios are completely irrelevant.
This is not correct either, you have a pattern on this.... When and how much lines go loose will also affect when and how much they will tension, so how much they are loose is actually very important. It is hard though to judge the importance when they are slack and much easier to observe when or at what sheet point they engage. For tuning a kite this is the important guide. If and when I sheet in or out what goes slack or tight. Quite easy to observe and very helpful.

One has to question the dichotomy of your situation kitexpert, you call yourself that but do not display the qualities and instead seem to be here to gain an education on how to design foil kites. Maybe you should just stick to tube kites, though I doubt you are good at designing them either. Typical kite "designer" though lol. :lol: Tube kites are incredibly simple compared to foil kites, it wouldn't be hard to do much better than existing. I have to laugh at how many a kite "designer" has struggled with bridles.... Like Bill Hanson with his beloved spider bridle. It all seems quite basic compared to what foil kites do.
dan_kan wrote: As I wrote if we keep front and rear lines equal before mixer section and ABCZ in line after mixer section (this is of course the max AoA for the foil)
No this is not the max AoA of a foil kite. You need to know as well the primary way a kite changes AoA is position in the window and not sheeting, that is secondary. Maybe you are talking about the stall point? Well that is not a static, it varies with the speed of the kite, which is particularly influenced by the wind speed but also how you pilot it and ride.

The max AoA a kite can achieve is (usually) at the limit of mixer powered and with it sitting straight down wind. The min AoA is at the edge of the window flying just on A, but you can also technically invert the kite, particularly with high camber to get even lower AoA. You can actually use the forward momentum or torque from higher camber to roll out from powered to depower, even when deep in the window, to give very low or inverting like low AoA. This is actually interesting because it completely kills the power even deep in the window!
dan_kan wrote: we do not mess with the original profile and angle at max power.
This is correct but you need to word it correct. Which is, so even though the ratio for Z is less, we can alter it's length so that it can still achieve the same length at some sheet point. It will however be a different length for all other sheet points.
dan_kan wrote: So keep oryginal max AoA and profile of the shape, ABCZ is in line. So how jackomixer can decrease camber if at max power the shape is original. And during depower throw jackomixer start increasing the camber as simulation shows. ABC is in line but Z is not. Everybody can calculate it in a couple bar positions to get the right conclusion. This is why i don't agree with U.
If you haven't read the later parts of viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2392917 where the mod was first discuss here, I suggest you do, or maybe read it again. It is actually not needed to get as complicated as you are on this, maybe though for your understanding it is good. In reality though the ratio for B and C stays the same so only Z would need adjusting. Whether ABCZ aligned or at AZ=0 is the point you should adjust around is questionable. I tried setup to the same AZ=0 point settings I had on my genesis and it didn't work, I had to tune Z to something different. The different ended up being basically what the standard mod produces. So you can say it is likely that is all you need, but you could tune things a bit different. I wouldn't worry about mixer settings and just adjust Z and fly, you will waste too much time thinking it all out.
dan_kan wrote: This is so simple, that if we can not agree with that there is no point to go further.
I'm leaving this topic,
Best regards
:lol: :lol:

It's toxic, welcome to kitexpert, the not so expert :roll:

I half wonder if he is a troll, here to stalk me or just lacking. Sadly he is just lacking L-)
:lol:

He has changed a bit over the years, me too. I can't say he is completely unhelpful, he is just dead wrong in so many areas, it is almost like he is on a disinformation campaign against foil kites to confuse people....it gets tiring to rebut him, but I do in the hope someone won't fall into his trap. A trap he has liking made for himself :roll: ....
dan_kan wrote: thanks S2000kitesurfer for o good idea. I hope I could try this mod in this year
It was Jackov that newly discovered it and brought it to light! You can read more on facebook about it in the Pansh group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/PanshKites/


The real inventor is the mysterious and amazing wizard of foil kites the great "FUNALEX" :-)

He hangs out in the french foil kite forums. http://www.lesfoilz.com/phpBB3/ https://www.tubelesskite.net/

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby Kiter_from_Germany » Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:21 am

Thanks - no kiting these times in our region - just forum... :cool2:

Z:
Didn't understand.
Found no way to start reverse with pulley engaged Z.
Would result to end of session when dropping the kite this way, and a lot of stress because filling the kite with water, tangling the lines and so.
If there is a design which handles this restart issue, would be from high interest.

This all is just in swimming areas of course...

A: This was a general remark, not special on Jacko,
but lots of mods around which take that flipping risk, which is really bad. Risk is the higher as B is more back in profile, like most modern designs are...

Buts just a hint, perhaps to keep in mind...

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:44 am

Kiter_from_Germany wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:44 pm
Just my 50ct.

For me no mixer makes sense on the water, where front (A) or back lines (Z) are not connected directly to their connection point.

Reason:
If Backtip not connected directly to Z, kite will not be able to start reverse
If front tip not connected directly to A, dangerous flip overs may happen.

Use 2:1 bar Instead
... or shorten Z until not so loose, if you want to do a looooot of tweaking...
Yes I tend to agree with you, hence my rapid give-up after Malabar initial idea on a big single skin, then not reproduced, or just for extreme light wind where you have anyway no chance to relaunch ; and my still use of 2:1 pulley bars on huge kites like race Peterlynn Aero 17m; there may be one exception for the diabloline, since the pulley is doubled by a direct drive of Z , so reverse risk and stroke is limited to the direct drive maximum ; it would be me , it is the only solution I would consider , knowing that to me the camber evolution with bar stroke is more logical than Jacko, and when good set-up, it will not impact the bar pressure until it engages (so , in extreme turns only) ;

PS: if you add a stopper on the pulley bar rear lines, you can also reproduce this partial engagement of pulley bar (like diablo) to keep an acceptable bar pressure at middle bar stroke (done on my ex Puslion 18m) and then engage only when sheet-in very strong.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:14 am

Kitekite wants to keep on denial and silly arguing. He can do it but I'm not going to correct it in detail any more. All I can do is to remind that following those kind of "advice" will result mostly in waste of time.

Having unclear, weird and also plain wrong conceptions is of course very bad starting point for developing or adjusting foil kites or anything. However some success can be had by trial and error and persistent tinkering etc., but it really isn't the way you should do it.

Real kite design is not at all about mixers or endless tweakings with them. They are not very interesting because usual 1:2:4 mixer does its job, it covers quite well the range of AoA of normal kites within a reasonable bar stroke. It really is that simple.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby sheehan » Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:33 am

Kiter_from_Germany wrote: Z:
Didn't understand.
Found no way to start reverse with pulley engaged Z.
Well you didn't try the Jackomixer did you? It relaunches fine. Other mods I suggest you try for the A15 are, the no C mod and the no Z tip bridle.
Regis-de-giens wrote: diabloline, since the pulley is doubled by a direct drive of Z , so reverse risk and stroke is limited to the direct drive maximum ; it would be me , it is the only solution I would consider , knowing that to me the camber evolution with bar stroke is more logical than Jacko, and when good set-up, it will not impact the bar pressure until it engages (so , in extreme turns only) ;
The main advantage of the Jackomixer is the double ratio B and C. Depending on the kite the lower ratio of Z may be bad or good, but like on the A15 it is fine.


Of note the A15 needs Z shortened a little (~2 to 7cm) from the standard Jackomixer mod to gain a little more performance, and particularly more lift.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kf4chris » Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:55 pm

S2000kitesurfer wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:13 pm
Just tried the 9m a15 with Jackomixer
This ?


How to make lower-AR Pansh kites (Genesis, A15) behave like high-AR kite

I was contemplating on what is the main difference between low-AR foil kites and high-AR foil kites and LEI. The main difference is the bar pressure needed to change the angle of attack (AA) of the kite.

Low-AR foil kites need very little bar pressure to change the angle of attack. It's simple physics: since the central chord is long (i.e. 1.5m for 6m2 Genesis, and for 9m2 A15) compared to the total area of the kite, little force is needed as you need to make a longer pull on the control lines compared to higher-AR kite. For comparison, the 7m2 Aeolus has central chord of 1.15m, and the 13m2 has a chord of 1.56m.

This makes the kite prone to the wind drift of the control lines, since little pull is needed to change the AA. What I did is making the bar twice heavier by changing the pulley system of the mixer.

I attached the control lines to the C-lines, and used the spare pulley and pulley line to make the Z be pulled twice as much by attaching the one end of the spare pulley line to the B-lines, then through the pulley and to the Z lines.

The result is very good, allowing for steeper angles upwind, less pull of the kite when at 12, less drag of the kite when de-powered, zenith parking at lighter winds, and better de-power (feeling much more comfortable in strong winds).

How to do it on A15 kite:
- detach the AXY and YZ lines;
- detach the Z line;
- attach one end of the red line (the C pulley line) to the Z bridles (where the Z line was attached);
- attach the other end of the red line to the B line where the B-bridles are attached;
- fold the detached Z line in two, and attach it to the ear of the C pulley (i.e. where the C line is attached to the pulley);
-attach the YZ line to loose end of the folded-in-two Z line;
-attach back the AXY line;

You're done!

It's good to test the kite without a bar by tying the two AXY lines together, attaching them to the harness hook, and holding the two YZ lines in your hands.

If you find the above useful, I wouldn't mind buying me a beer by donating my paypal account: lucho@skycode.com

Video howto (thanks to Derek Voller):
66638983_2886382258043571_35792182975660032_o.jpg

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby sheehan » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:37 pm

Another option for the A15 if someone wanted to try, is to disconnect the Z bridles and instead use C as Z and run a 2to1 mixer. Reasoning is the flysurfer race and VMG has similar Z position as A15 C. You could likely do some transitioning from C to Z at the tip too.

Though from rough measuring cord positions of 81% Z on Vmg vs 70% C on A15 seems like C alone might not relaunch on the A15.

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Re: Pansh 12m A15 ultralight with Jackomixer wow

Postby kitexpert » Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:33 pm

sheehan wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:37 pm
Another option for the A15 if someone wanted to try, is to disconnect the Z bridles and instead use C as Z and run a 2to1 mixer. Reasoning is the flysurfer race and VMG has similar Z position as A15 C. You could likely do some transitioning from C to Z at the tip too.

Though from rough measuring cord positions of 81% Z on Vmg vs 70% C on A15 seems like C alone might not relaunch on the A15.
That is natural conclusion from FS race kite bridles but I don't think it would support low AR wing well enough. Actually it is a bit wonder 70% brakes is possible even in race kites, there is still quite long area near TE without bridle support. Compared to some other race kites which have "over pulled" TE with a diablo line mixer it is very different construction.


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