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Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

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Breze
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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby Breze » Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:27 pm

My Sonic2 13qm had the same frontal collapse. When getting some speed with the foil @ + 10kn wind.
After the long mixer test the kite pulled better, but had the same collapse.
I had a phone call with one of the FS guys at the repair shop. Very nice guy, he gave some light to my questions.
They do long mixer on the a1 row, not a8 like the Soul.
He told me the following steps.
a1-4 gets 2cm extra LCL. Only a1-4 to give back the arc shape .
The 3 outer, upper sail PMAs one knot in. The outer PMA gets 2 knots shorter.
Then long mixer. Extend Z with a knots ladder
If the kite has no power, slowly lengthen C to get back the zoom.
Has worked so far, kite is stable. Have to play with C .
Have to replace the sparepart lines for longer C

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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby twig » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:20 pm

Breze wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:27 pm
The 3 outer, upper sail PMAs one knot in. The outer PMA gets 2 knots shorter.
I will try this whole adjustment, it makes sense, but had a question about your instruction with the PMAs.

I understand the first part "3 outer upper PMAs one knot in" but then "the outer PMA gets 2 knots shorter"? Did you mean the remaining inner PMA(closest to the center of the kite)? That would maybe make sense.(I found 4 PMA locations each side with 2 PMAs each, one for the upper and one lower sail. Located at the cell walls where the a10, a8, a5 and a2 is)

Thanks for these tips!

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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby Foil » Sun Aug 30, 2020 7:23 am

SpunMonkey wrote:
Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:31 am
kiteexpertyexpert wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 10:19 pm
The number one way to tune any foil kite is adjust Z
Any tips for knowing when to shorten z and when to lengthen it?

Im looking specifically to stop wing tip tucking when going downwind. this kite has flown reasonably well and only recently started doing this downwind.

Thanks.
that's an easy one, even I know that one,
lengthen the z line a little bit, maybe a centimeter on the side where the tip goes soft, try it a then go from there, little steps so you don't reduce the steering input response to much.
on the latest freeride ozones the Z line is the only bridal line that ever needs a tweak, so its the only bit of the bridal that can be tuned on the beach without any tools, all my chrono v3 foils I needed a little tweak on the Z line after a while, easy peasy :thumb:

Breze
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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby Breze » Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:45 am

Hi twig
Yes bad explanation from me. Thanks for clarification with the positions of the PMAs.
No i meant the outermost gets 2 knots.( a10)
upper sail : a10 gets 2 Knots a8 1 knot a5 1 knot a2 zero knot

The PMAs should affect the pitching moment of the foil, to prevent a negative pm shorten the upper sail PMA.
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merl
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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby merl » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:38 am

Out of curiosity how big are the PMA adjustments? 10mm per knot?

Breze
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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby Breze » Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:26 am

I would say 15-20 mm per knot

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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby twig » Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:11 am

I've tried the adjustment with the PMAs and extending the a1,a2,a3 and a4 with 2cm. well it definitely feels like it gives stability.

then flattening the profile with the mixer and as it gets very flat it works and it has performance, but it still has front collapses in the middle of the kite sometimes. tried it in 12-14 knots, abit gusty wind.

then I make the profile a bit more round by shortening b+c and it seems to be very stable but looses quite some performance, does not sit exactly at the very edge of the windwindow and needs to ride it with full depower to not stall alot if I pull the bar. it feels like its draggy and pulls alot all the time.
at this stage played a bit with z, I have a line with knots to try different settings. tried lengthen it and the trailing edge started to flap a bit. then made it shorter and it catches wind, maybe too much. Wondering if a shortened z would push the kite further to the edge of the windwindow?, too loose z and it has problems to fly fast forward to the windwindow in lightwind is my experience after some testing.

I feel like its so sensitive for small adjustments, it feels like im changing b+c just 1cm - max 1,5 cm and it loses alot of performance. I question if my speed4 lotus 12m has more performance then this sonic2
what I miss is a feel where it palces itself very far at the edge of the windwindow and I want to be able to pull the bar a bit without backstall, to get a heavy pull when the bar is pulled in alot. I have tried with loose z and it does not change the character alot.

Breze
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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby Breze » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:13 pm

Hi twig
After you made a1-4 2cm longer, you have to do an exact long mixer test on a1. Only then you get back the right profil in the important centerpart . To do this right , have a look at the 2 vids onu page one.
To gain an even pull of 5kg ,i made a simple rigg with two 5kg weights, some lines and two pulleys, small biners to clip into the LCL. Fixed the rings of A &Z Main on same level.
With a ruler you can check for the right difference between A and C . You will have to lenghten C a lot at the mixer. Then check ratio A to B and A to Z. Extend Z as you did, with a knots ladder.

If you play only with the Z knots ladder, remember longer Z is equal with shorter C/B & vice versa.

To have a better understanding of an airfoil profil, have a look at this
Benny explains the importance of the shape of the top sail between A and B to have a long laminar airflow. B too short means turbulence flow , no forward speed but much more drag.As your kite shows.
If still frontal collapse starting from the middle , you can try to shorten the other PMA in the upper sail . But i am sure it works without.
For the 13m Sonic2 A1 to C1 -!!! 33mm ,A1 to B1 + 10mm, A1 to Z1 + 216mm. - means A1 shorter than C1. + means A1 10mm longer than B1
Hope it helps you
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twig
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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby twig » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:25 pm

I have now added pigtails to lengthen b + c + br, to compensate for shrink in the bridle. To get back total the right length in the middle of the kite (mixer test on a1) I would have to add around 12 - 15cm on the b + c + br. If doing so I would lengthen the rest of the kite too much. I was also checkingdifferences between (a to b, c and br) at a5 and a9, both sides.

My idea was then instead to do mixertest to a5, and then to add extra pigtails inside the middle of the bridle to give the middle of the kites bridle the right length, then shorten the tips with knots.

after long mixertest at a5 with added pitails to main B, C and BR ( from 8 to 12cm long ones), the kite should be good between middle and the tips, the middle a bit more stable and the tips slightly too short at b,c and br(unstable tips).

The kite now flies fast in the sky -feels good, but then gives a very very certain collapse at speed on the foil. sometimes its the middle with frontstall collapse, and sometimes 1/3 of the kite cuts at around a4 / a5 and that tip(1/3 of the kite just hangs behind the kite.
After these collapses the airpressure inside is much less and it needs you to pull the bar fully to inflate and fold out the structure, while dragging 150meter back to the beach.

if i would shorten b+c from now I will just loose the speed of the kite, after shortening alot i think i would be back at a stable yet slow kite. Im in doubt that this kite would work with a complete new bridle and im not willing to sell this to someone to deal with. The inside looks good, nothing broken, maybe just a tiny bit of wear, tiny rips in the upper part of the round holes in the cell wall in the middle of the kite, but so little i cant see that it would be the problem. The PMA's should compensate for that.

Any other pro tips?

Breze
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Re: Help re-tuning a Sonic 2, am I on the correct path? Bridle/mixer

Postby Breze » Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:07 pm

I had the frontal collapse too after LMT.
I shortened only B in two steps, for now 2cm. 1cm was not enough. Now it is stable while foiling, jumps huge but is not fast when flying cross the wind window.


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