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Stacking foil kites?

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jaros
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Stacking foil kites?

Postby jaros » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:26 am

Is stacking foil kites even possible? It was easy back in the days with arcs, but they had all 4 lines conected to the side of the kite (like tube C-kites). I cant see a way of doing it simple with foil kites.
I would like to try to stack two Peak4 kites btw... :o :o :o

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jumptheshark
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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:05 pm

I've stacked arcs. I had a 16 a 13 and a 10 Venom3 for ages. It was tricky to do well, and even at its best, it is not something I would do again.

In todays state of the art where the biggest kite most recreational foilers are ever going to need is between 11 and 15m it's just not worth it. Maybe as an experiment with Peaks, but it will be just that.

Two kites together really negatively impact the flying performance of each other so neither actually ends up producing any where near the power per meter they do on their own.

This is one of those situations where the performance of the whole is well less than the sum of the component parts! The big kite slows the whole system down, but much slower than it would be on its own, because your input to it is all third party translated through the first kite. The small kite is held back by the big one and tends to wobble between getting ahead and then falling back when its stalled back by the big kite. Until you get the distance and trim just right between kites, you will have a oscillating system that is hard to control and correct. Even when you get it all just right, you have much lower stall resistance of both kites, virtually no relaunch, very limited ability to work or recover the kites in the window because they are so much slower, they pull each other out of shape and they sit so deep the overall window is significantly smaller. This translates into glacial turning speed, lack lustre power and piss poor upwind while occasionally falling back to produce loads of static power you can't shed.

It takes a bit of time to get the system working as a unit, and there is a relative sheeting difference between the kites where that big one has to be sheeted out compared to the small one, to speed it up and stop it from stalling, so you never really get to capitalize on its power. It really just ends up being a wet noodle that kills all the joy in the smaller kite.

I spent some time on it, and eventually got the 10/13 stack to fly pretty well together, but it was never even close to more utility than the 16m on its own.

Still a decent learning experience, but with things like hydrofoils, we are at the stage where kite size is at its all time lowest, and there are people who can get out and ride in ridiculously low wind speed without going bigger than 13m.

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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby jaros » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:03 pm

jumptheshark wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:05 pm
I've stacked arcs. I had a 16 a 13 and a 10 Venom3 for ages. It was tricky to do well, and even at its best, it is not something I would do again.

In todays state of the art where the biggest kite most recreational foilers are ever going to need is between 11 and 15m it's just not worth it. Maybe as an experiment with Peaks, but it will be just that.

Two kites together really negatively impact the flying performance of each other so neither actually ends up producing any where near the power per meter they do on their own.

This is one of those situations where the performance of the whole is well less than the sum of the component parts! The big kite slows the whole system down, but much slower than it would be on its own, because your input to it is all third party translated through the first kite. The small kite is held back by the big one and tends to wobble between getting ahead and then falling back when its stalled back by the big kite. Until you get the distance and trim just right between kites, you will have a oscillating system that is hard to control and correct. Even when you get it all just right, you have much lower stall resistance of both kites, virtually no relaunch, very limited ability to work or recover the kites in the window because they are so much slower, they pull each other out of shape and they sit so deep the overall window is significantly smaller. This translates into glacial turning speed, lack lustre power and piss poor upwind while occasionally falling back to produce loads of static power you can't shed.

It takes a bit of time to get the system working as a unit, and there is a relative sheeting difference between the kites where that big one has to be sheeted out compared to the small one, to speed it up and stop it from stalling, so you never really get to capitalize on its power. It really just ends up being a wet noodle that kills all the joy in the smaller kite.

I spent some time on it, and eventually got the 10/13 stack to fly pretty well together, but it was never even close to more utility than the 16m on its own.

Still a decent learning experience, but with things like hydrofoils, we are at the stage where kite size is at its all time lowest, and there are people who can get out and ride in ridiculously low wind speed without going bigger than 13m.
I am sure you are spot on, but I would still like to try! :D
I have Peak4 in size 4 and 5m2, maybe it could be worth a try with such small kites. If it is even possible to do it.
Or at least fun experiment for now, that all I can do (kite related) is flying a kite on the grass. :(

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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby davesails7 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:13 pm

I don't think it would work with a peak. The connection points need to be out at the wintips so the lines go past the kite below (like on the venom). It seems like the lines from the kite above would be rubbing on the kite below causing it to collapse or damage it.

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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby jaros » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:17 pm

davesails7 wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:13 pm
I don't think it would work with a peak. The connection points need to be out at the wintips so the lines go past the kite below (like on the venom). It seems like the lines from the kite above would be rubbing on the kite below causing it to collapse or damage it.
That is how I see it also. I thought maybe there is some trick I do not know about…
So I guess stacking is reserved only for klasik C kites and arcs...

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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby Trent hink » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:44 pm

I think i recal that someone had done it with flexifoil blades many years ago. From what understood, it basically required an upside down bridle attached to the top of the bottom kite.

There's a reason why stacking kites never got popular, and jumptheshark pretty much nailed it. When my friend and I tried stacking lei kites years ago, we came to the same conclusion.

One of the coolest things i ever saw though, was a guy named Lee Segwick kite skiing with a stack of about 10-15 Revolution stunt kites.
Last edited by Trent hink on Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:48 pm

jaros wrote:
Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:17 pm
So I guess stacking is reserved only for klasik C kites and arcs...
Or flexifoil stackers, framed 2 line kites, framed 4 line kites...
RevStackBuggy.jpg
RevStackBuggy.jpg (24.32 KiB) Viewed 336 times
I've flown static arc stacks and a rev stack (not me in the picture). The rev stack actually pulls way more upwind and is more maneuverable. Relaunch (and even the initial launch) is risky with any stack but arcs very stable once up.

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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby jakemoore » Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:07 am

May need to put an opening the the canopy so that stack lines may be lined up with the tow points. So the experiment may sacrifice a kite or at least its resale value.

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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby jumptheshark » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:04 am

Apart from bridle through canopy issues, stacks seem to work best with same size kites that turn and fly at the same speed.

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Re: Stacking foil kites?

Postby jaros » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:39 am

jakemoore wrote:
Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:07 am
May need to put an opening the the canopy so that stack lines may be lined up with the tow points. So the experiment may sacrifice a kite or at least its resale value.
No way i am gona hurt my Peaks like that! So, no stacking for me... :thumb:


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