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Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

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Bille
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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby Bille » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:02 pm

bohme wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:28 pm
There is too much BS in this thread.

This was originally about a 2 level bridle made possible by using some FLEXIBLE battens.

I will now explain why glass fibre might be a good choice for THIS application:

Imagine you have a straight rod batten you want to curve into a closed circle. You can either use GF or CF.
T700 carbon fibre : 1200MPa break stress, 120GPa modulus, 1% break strain level
E-glass fibre : 800MPa break stress, 40GPa modulus, 2% break strain level (yes, it look bad...)

For the same battens properties (same force and diameter of the closed circle), both M (bending moment) and EI (beam stiffness) MUST to be identical.
For this to happen I (moment of inertia) need to be 3 times higher for GF. It is not looking good for GF...
The thickness of the GF rod needs to be 1.316 timers thicker. GF is looking heavy...
HOWEVER, The formula for stress My/I shows that CF has 229% higher stress level than GF, but only 50% extra strength. OOOPS

Conclusion:
Glass fibre is stronger than carbon fibre. For THIS application.
Where is the part , for your (break stress) calculations for carbon , that take into account, the
added "Strength" ya get with the carbon , when a , (Ballistic fabric) is added ?
Did You conveniently, just Leave that out ; or was it a mistake ?




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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby Mane » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:52 pm

hi,
i do not really care about the material they use (guess FS knows in general what they do) i would like to know how it performs....
was there any competition, comparison with the VMG2 taking part?

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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby twig » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:58 pm

I Guess they used prototypes for this kite in the most recent hydrofoil pro tour.


Im courious about of its possible to relaunch leading edge down. If not its only for high level riders wich is no surprise. Its just that There is a reason to get the vmg1 if you(i) want to be sure to relaunch while training. Or it enda with Long swims If wind drops just short periods.

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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby derek440 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:20 am

I have heard that the VMG2 is quite easy to fly and does water relaunch ok and its easy to fly super fast. Can't wait to see one in a few weeks, will post some pictures and maybe video when I get a chance. RE La Ventanna, yes Theo DR was on a VMG2 and he was way faster than everyone else, but he was also on the new levitaz R5 foil which may have been a factor (also made for gold in 2024 olympics).

RE battens there are more serious concerns around Ozone's choice of batten material rather than FS, Ozone opted to change the material from R1v2 to R1v3 and the new lighter battens have been bending and Ozone partially blamed people not doing very careful "concertina" packdown as the reason why there have been very serious race kite inversions with the v3. Interestingly in the new marketing material for the ver4 R1 ozone have mandated concertina pack-down (where you have to sit each batten on the next one in order) after every ride or you void the warranty. Also to keep the battens packed in concertina you need a compression bag to hold them, but Ozone are only selling those as an (expensive) optional extra. So whilst this thread has been talking about FS and their choice of material for the new battens most racers I have spoken to have been more concerned about dangerous kite inversions and having to buy a full quiver of bags and do annoying pack-downs every day.

RE bridle parasitic drag I heard (a few months ago) that VMG2 has reduced drag enormously by deleting about 40% of the bridle but ozone only made incremental reduction. In my own experience I was skeptical about the real difference this makes but after riding kites with different parasitic drag levels it actually makes a huge difference, as does using race lines with your bar. Note that the two level design also seems that the second row actually is where C level normally is in the middle of the kite and moves to where z would normally be near the outside of the kite. Also the rigidity of the VMG2 canopy sounds like its a huge advantage and is partially why the wind ranges are so huge, check out the numbers on the FS Page, it looks like the bottom and top end are crazy wide, the 13m is 8-27(!) knots. Also note that for the first time FS are saying you don't need a bigger bar for the bigger kites, they must turn pretty well if that's the case, the 23m only needs a 55cm bar. This kite might be a game changer for racing, but need to see a few more races before shelling out that kind of money, and need to increase my race skills!

Lastly RE the bridle note that the IKA rules mean the canopy must be locked in and approved for the upcoming quad, but the bridle and "rigging" can be changed right up to the olympics so FS have every intention of using that time to the make further gains in that area. Interesting times!

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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:38 am

derek440 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:20 am
Lastly RE the bridle note that the IKA rules mean the canopy must be locked in and approved for the upcoming quad, but the bridle and "rigging" can be changed right up to the olympics so FS have every intention of using that time to the make further gains in that area. Interesting times!
Presumably the canopy doesn't include the battens/stiffeners? So flysurfer could tweak the composition should they decide they can get a performance advantage?

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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby davesails7 » Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:55 pm

derek440 wrote: I have heard that the VMG2 is quite easy to fly and does water relaunch ok and its easy to fly super fast.
Thanks for the info on how the VMG2 actually flies, but a little off topic considering this is clearly a discussion about whether or not carbon fiber is stiffer than fiberglass :lol:

Really interested in trying this kite! I had a VMG1 15m for awhile, and I didn't get along with it on my older Delta Race foil (2017?). The VMG didn't have nearly as much ability to depower as the Sonic, Sonic 2, or R1V2 that I've also owned. I would get overpowered going upwind on the VMG 15m at around 13 knots, but on an R1V2 15m I could handle 18 knots. Downwind though, I had no issues, and the VMG was clearly faster than the r1V2.

Then recently I picked up a used Mikes Lab B3 and realized what my problem was. The Mikes Lab can handle so much more power upwind, and just translates that power into speed with much less effort. Previously, I always had to pull the depower to go upwind on the delta foil, but now I barely ever use the depower at all on the Mikes Lab. It's convinced me to give the VMG another try.

It also makes sense to me now why many top riders have removed their depower lines altogether.

It seemed that the VMG1 lost some ability to depower by going to 3 rows of bridles, so wondering if VMG2 loses even more ability to depower? Either way, when paired with the right race foil and a skilled rider, it seems depower isn't needed anymore.

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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby Bille » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:30 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:38 am
derek440 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:20 am
Lastly RE the bridle note that the IKA rules mean the canopy must be locked in and approved for the upcoming quad, but the bridle and "rigging" can be changed right up to the olympics so FS have every intention of using that time to the make further gains in that area. Interesting times!
Presumably the canopy doesn't include the battens/stiffeners? So flysurfer could tweak the composition should they decide they can get a performance advantage?
Now that makes Perfect sense to me now, (for their choice in composites) ; they
test with the cheap stuff, and go for the good materials, on race day !! :thumb:

I didn't know they could change that much stuff, and still be Olympic legal ; and
that's why i questioned it.

Are they also allowed to tweek the airfoil as well , after the canopy is locked in and
approved ; like change the camber for the battens ?

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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby derek440 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:01 am

I don't think they'll be able to change the battens but who knows? I think the rules came from sailing so they are about sails and rigging, i reckon the battens would be part of the "sail" so its locked in I'd say. The rigging I believe includes the bridle so you could change the shape but less so the way VGM2 has been designed where the bridle has almost no affect on camber.

@DaveSails7 that's interesting about VMG1, I have found the same concept applies with a few of my kites. An interesting example of this is with the Halo, whilst it appears similar to other freeride kites like Soul and Hyperlink, Lecca etc it actually has an amazing ability to come further around the window when you use a race foil with it. What this means is you can hold it down in crazy wind and it will go insanely upwind and angles and speeds similar to race kites. Same thing I think applies to Sonic3 and that's partly how they get their huge wind range. Sounds like VMG2 will be the best example of this yet, when riding overpowered just point it crazy high angle and you can hold it, and unleash the best downwind! I can't wait for races to start again we should see TDR and the other VMG2 riders possibly even riding up a kite size, Toni Vodisec style. My 19m halo i can ride easily up to 15kn with race foil and down to about 5kn.

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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby Bille » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:47 am

Sailing rules ?
The AC-72, which is a rigid-wing ; it's allowed to change, camber, (flap looking thingie)
; the three-line race-kites , (AB-Z) can also change camber, when they use different AOA .

I got a feeling, that this new kite , might be able to do the same ; with
the addition of a few parts.


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Last edited by Bille on Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flysurfer is going to beat fishnets? (Release of VMG2)

Postby derek440 » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:03 am

I don't really know or care that much about the rules, just going off what TDR said about this subject, which was that FS put most effort into making the kite itself as rigid as they can because they can't change that after the olympic quad is locked (already happened) but they can change the bridle as its considered "rigging" which you can change right up to the olympics.


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