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Best folding and line management technique

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nothing2seehere
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Best folding and line management technique

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:10 am

I'm new to foils (with a 2nd hand flysurfer soul) and so far self launching and landing has been stress free. Even drying a kite out after being caught in a rain shower has been easier than the equivalent fun with an LEI

However every session so far starts with 15 minutes of playing with string. I have been copying the youtube line management videos where the bar remains connected (haven't tried the Liquid force method yet) but I can't work out what I'm doing wrong with my pack-up that means it seems so tangled every time.

Here's my packdown.
- Land kite (Top down), anchor in place, open deflate vents
- wrap lines up to the connectors and tie bungees
- wrap bridles up to the pulleys.
- Move bar to the leading edge (completely off the leading edge actually) in the centre so that it pulls the bridles into the middle
- Fold kite and roll from the wingtip into the centre (make sure no bridle lines are sticking out)
- When its at the centre pull bar onto the kite and fold over either edge and stick it in the bag.

My setup is different.
- Open bag. Kite on the ground. Move bar onto the ground and unfold/unroll the kite. Weight upwind tip
- Take bar over to the trailing edge
- Unwrap bar about 5m down past the connectors
- Spend 15 minutes untangling lines so I know none of them are twisted. (Visual check of A/B/C/Z bridles to make sure they aren't interfering with each other)
- Unwrap the rest of the lines
- Inflate and launch.

Its all good apart from the massive amount of untangling. I had (have) one of those chinese kites that must not be named and the shorter bridles made it a lot simpler to setup. Maybe I'm being overly cautious but I like to have a check before putting the kite up. Is it something that you just skip as you get more experienced?

Any suggestions to make it quicker?

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:51 am

I think you do it the best way.

Of course you can make it quicker if you DONT check the bridles, and simply run the bar out and take the chance.

But too risky, I've had line and bridle snags even when lines/bar was not twisted at all.

I do like you, only difference is I roll my lines all the way out first, put a board on the bar, and then check the bridles/lines at the kite, lift the kite and vents up a bit to get inflated just a tad if possible, and now maybe even run the lines down to the bar and untwist the bar before launching, as I sometimes get a tangle at the V otherwise.

Always launch dead downwind though, as I only use foil kites for foiling.

Do this on big foil kites.

On small single skin foil kites 3 m2 and up to 8, I do exactly like you, get the bridles right 5-10 m away when unrolling, and continue, and when at the bar I simply start straight away.
Usually I can put the kite without any weight on it, if a tad of grass, otherwise a bit of sand on the TE - I dont like the side launch method, way too uncertain, and not good if you have a kitecam in the lines.

By far the fastest way, I can not see any options to do it faster, if you want to make sure there are no twists.

A twist does not mean anything is crossed, it can simply be tiny bridles getting a kink/lock, will happen now and then :naughty:

Not that risky for kitefoil as not very powered, but the hazzle getting it right again, and a wrapped bowtied kite, means I dont skip this step anymore.

Having the bar outside in front of the LE is also the best way IMO, if you use the TE, the risk of getting loose bridles to snag is way too big :wink:

8) Peter

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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby joriws » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:47 am

I seem to pack same way as you described. Just put bridles between kite halves and roll from tip to center. I store my bars outside of kite, so I can rinse them easily as there is water hose at my usual place.

On launch I mostly use side launch. First I unroll the bar for all the lines. Then I go back to kite and check that all bridle are going out the same top side from kite, not under it, easy to see if A-bridle goes underneath the kite from LE. Then I preinflate kite a bit. The I go to mixer, I usually work upwind side first and untwist Z if it is around ABC. So that Z is free and outside of ABC. Then I take A-row, lift it up and tighten a bit to see if lines are clear and untwisted, then B. If I can see bird nest I go to the nest and analyze which line is looped like needle hole through the nest and pull that out (or take small branch out). Usually that clears the nest, and I go back to mixer and re-tighten. If all seem to be clear I move to other side doing the same. After all bridles are clear I walk to bar with finger combing the lines, and untwist lines when reach the bar. Attach and launch. For me it does take less than people setting up pump kite, a couple minutes or so.

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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby Nem0 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:19 pm

Most of the time short shaking left an right the bridle sort out the nest on my kites. It takes seconds not 15 minutes!

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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby Breze » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:23 pm

Here you can see a perfect packdown, even for swimming waterstart


Be carefull with nests , avoid them to not break the sheeting of the lines , this will shorten the bridle

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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby FLandOBX » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:38 pm

Your techniques are similar to mine. Here are two suggestions that might eliminate your 15 minute headache.

Your packing up technique: "...wrap lines up to the connectors and tie bungees
- wrap bridles up to the pulleys..."

Why do you tie the bungees BEFORE wrapping bridles up to the pulleys? Consider wrapping your lines and bridles on the bar up to the pulleys and then securing the bungees. This might eliminate bridles falling off and getting tangled while your bar is being transported and stored.

Your pre-launch technique: "...Unwrap bar about 5m down past the connectors
- Spend 15 minutes untangling lines..."

Like PF and others, I completely unwrap the lines BEFORE sorting them. If you stop unwrapping at the connectors to sort, it's likely that your lines and bridles will appear to have twists or tangles that would actually shake out easily if your lines were fully unwrapped to the bar. Consider unwrapping your lines completely and then running/sorting your lines as if the bar had been disconnected (I prefer to run them from kite to bar). If you've packed your kite and bar correctly, the process of running your lines simply eliminates twists and will give you peace of mind when launching.
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FLandOBX
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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby FLandOBX » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:43 pm

Breze wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:23 pm
Here you can see a perfect packdown, even for swimming waterstart


Be carefull with nests , avoid them to not break the sheeting of the lines , this will shorten the bridle
This is a good technique for land kiting. But if your bar is wet or sandy, or you want to rinse it with fresh water before storing, the practice of rolling your bar within the kite isn't as desirable.

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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:52 pm

Nem0 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 12:19 pm
Most of the time short shaking left an right the bridle sort out the nest on my kites. It takes seconds not 15 minutes!
I'm exaggerating here a little. The whole process from kite out of the bag to kite in the air is 15 minutes. That's about 3 times longer than it takes with an inflatable for me. It must be at least 5 minutes of checking the bridles/lines though. I am foiling and riding twin tips but even in 15-18knots the bridles catch the wind so they look like they are caught up together. Is there a better way of shaking them out? Bridles held high up above your head maybe?

I guess its something that comes with experience. I know I have plenty to learn to get the best out of it riding still but with the darker days my riding time is increasingly shortened so I'm looking for those tips to get me out quicker.

Most local spots have a grass launch so sandy is not a problem I have too often. Good advice though.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Oct 12, 2020 3:13 pm

I think it is a matter of getting used to.

Foil kites are way faster to launch, than any LEI kite, because you dont need to inflate, and you can roll and sort the lines out extremely fast.

With my Peak4, I timed it once on a summerday, just to see HOW fast I could be ready (at a spot where I could launch and land just at the side of the car).

2:00 minutes from I parked the car, till ready to go on the water, meaning 120 seconds it took me to:

Foil out of the car, assembled (if not, I only got one screw so does not take long).
Harness out of the car and on (summer, so only shorts, would take 20 seconds more if having to get in a shorty).
Kite out of the bag, lock the car and hide the key.
Put the kite on the ground and roll the lines out and launch, trusting lines are sorted as they usually are on these kites.

It would take A LOT longer to inflate a LEI, and roll/sort/connect the bar (as most do with LEIs, myself included)
Even with lines attached, a LEI takes a lot longer, you also have to close the valve, takes time too.

Packing down, I had to use 3 minutes before I could drive away:
Backing the kite down.
Get the key, and put harness in the car.
Rolling lines up.
Folding kite.
Put it in the bag.
Foilboard in the car.
Drive away.

And it would be closer to 3½ minutes, if I were to get in dry clothing, meaning shorts and maybe T shirt.

Still, I timed how long it took with LEI's some years ago, it took a lot longer !
The most time consuming part is if you have a full wetsuit, especially the warmer ones, it takes much longer than rigging and launching a kite, I found out.

I dont rush like above normally, but because I had been out in one spot, wind died, I drove to another, wind okay - I had the chance to time HOW FAST I could be, from parking the car till standing ready to go in the water, kite in the air, board under my arm :rollgrin:
It was fun, and amazingly fast, I had an idea, but did not knew exactly !

With big lightwind foil kites, setting up is very fast too, a bit longer though.
But packing double skin foil kites DOWN, is horrible - it takes so much longer to get these deflated and packed in the bag, that everything you gain on the start compared to LEI's in terms of less time, is more than lost.
It does not matter much though, as the important part is usually a quick setup, so you can get on the water while there is wind and light.
Packdown can be done after sunset, and/or where you are relaxed hopefully after a good session :rollgrin:

8) Peter

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Re: Best folding and line management technique

Postby JakeFarley » Mon Oct 12, 2020 4:06 pm

Couple of things I do differently is that I keep the bar on the trailing edge, not the leading edge, outside the kite, in a bar bag. That way when I set up I do not have to get the bar over the kite to the trailing edge to launch. I check the bar for twists in the lines before unraveling the lines. That way I do not have to flip the bar so much after running out the lines, maybe once. Also, when I wrap the lines on the bar after securing the bungees (which tend to slip off on my FS bars), I put two half-hitches in the lines on the bar to make sure that they do not fall off.

I am very careful when wrapping my lines up after a session and when unrolling my lines during setup to make sure no lines get under the bar causing crossed lines (hold the bar in the middle by the chicken loop).

It's worth a couple of extra minutes to double check your setup before launching. It could be the difference between a safe, successful launch and a kitemare.


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