Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

For all foil kite riders
User avatar
downunder
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2309
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:16 am
Gear: building my own
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Perth, Australia
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby downunder » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:29 am

I have a different view on this.

More we put the kite in a drink, the worse they get. For that reason, and only reason I think foils are the best for land. Not water. It does not matter how good they are. Like a road carbon bike, not good for off road.

Here is a thing with Soul. It will rip the panels and it will stretch the sewings because it is so air tight. Lets discuss how much water it takes when we stuff up? 500L? 200? 100?

Now, try to pull 200L of sea anchor out. Even with 50L a few people are needed to make it safe. Some ppl will now jump from the chair how good they are and that never happens to them. Well, they are minority.

And than rips. Only silicone based patches stick to that fabric. How easy is to find colored silicone patch? Not easy. Also, very difficult to fix internal panel rips.

All together, very high maintenance kites. In 5 years time, the technology will change. Why we need a long lifespan than?

sshantt
Rare Poster
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:21 pm
Kiting since: 2018
Weight: 180lbs
Local Beach: San Francisco
Gear: Taaroa Sword 1 Foil
Mike's Lab foilboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby sshantt » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:30 pm

nothing2seehere wrote: For big wind range you will probably need to look at multiple bars. One of the guys down at my beach uses a foil and 10m soul nearly all the time - I've been going out on my 9m LEI and twin tip when he's out on his 10m soul and foil with short lines (we're talking 25knots cold wind though he rides a mid-high aspect wing rather than a surf wing) - but locally we tend not to push the low end limit of wind so couldn't tell you what the low end for the 10m soul is but I'd be surprised if it wasn't at least as good as the Roam. The soul doesn't float as well as the roam does though if you really want to push that low end.

Note that the same with short lines will apply to your Roam and my experience is that I'm taking a kitebag and weights down to the beach in order to launch my foil kite which isn't greatly different to taking a kitebag and pump. That said, I hear those aluula roams hold their value incredibly well so its probably a good time to sell it whilst the stock in the shops is scarce
Thanks for the big wind range tip nothing2seehere. Will definitely keep that in mind when cutting splicing my bar lines to make shorter lines + extensions. Also we have an abundance of sandbags on my local beach :D and I usually leave the kite bag in my car.
joriws wrote: Soul-kite with long mixer test allows you to be very precise on bridle length. Usually bridle is adjusted by doing additional larks head loops with bridle top end to LCL (little load fuse between kite anchor point and bridle). Or you can add another LCL if you need to lenghten. I've never swapped entire bridle, maybe 5 broken bridle lines with encounter with skis and sharp hydrofoil tailing edge. Older Speed or early Sonic you needed to do spreadsheet table for bridle lenght differences and measure relative lengths so much more work if you want to check. But in 11y of almost purely using foil kites I've never measured bridles. Maybe my oldest Psycho4 6m from 2008 it would be time.. :)

Normal maintenance is checking mixer line (Flysurfer catalog spare part line) because the shrink over time. 50h is recommended *checking* time, and replacament when it looks wear our and has shrunken a lot. I've broken two spare part lines on different sessions due to wear and launching for a jump. So they do break over time if not maintained. On Ozone-side mixer "wear line" is not that easy I believe, not as easy to adjust and I think they recommended swapping those every 50h on early Chronos (v1).

Porosity can be checked by breathing through fabric. With a new kite breathing is impossible, like breathing through plastic bag. Coatings last in normal use long time like stated previosly.

Normal checkup if you launch/land beach with sharp objects is pinhole checking when you pack your kite. If found, repair is easy, a small patch of repair tape inside-side of the kite (on pressure side).
Joriws thanks for reemphasizing the bridle robustness. I feel confident that in the worst case scenario under normal use, I would only have to replace the bridles at the kites half life point at 4 years if not even further down the line. Best case... maybe never.
downunder wrote: I have a different view on this.

More we put the kite in a drink, the worse they get. For that reason, and only reason I think foils are the best for land. Not water. It does not matter how good they are. Like a road carbon bike, not good for off road.

Here is a thing with Soul. It will rip the panels and it will stretch the sewings because it is so air tight. Lets discuss how much water it takes when we stuff up? 500L? 200? 100?

Now, try to pull 200L of sea anchor out. Even with 50L a few people are needed to make it safe. Some ppl will now jump from the chair how good they are and that never happens to them. Well, they are minority.

And than rips. Only silicone based patches stick to that fabric. How easy is to find colored silicone patch? Not easy. Also, very difficult to fix internal panel rips.

All together, very high maintenance kites. In 5 years time, the technology will change. Why we need a long lifespan than?
Downunder I appreciate your counter point there... I have pulled a drowned Soul 12m out of the water once (not mine) and felt the ripping force needed. If done correctly though, it can be collapsed and tied to the board early on. So I'm not too worried about that.

I guess my last two questions are
  • How well does it drift when I slack the lines a bit? Can I ride towards it without causing a disaster?
  • What is the upper end and lower end of wind range I can expect from a 15m Soul (80kg + HS1050)?

User avatar
downunder
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2309
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:16 am
Gear: building my own
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Perth, Australia
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby downunder » Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:26 am

It can, but....

I would say it is 50/50. Are we underestimating the time and frustration? Two days ago I put my Soul in a drink twice. So 1hr sesh was 3hrs sesh plus 1hr at home washing with tap water. Dragging the kite on sand bottom does what to canopy and lifespan?

And all of that in a hips deep water. Nope, when the lines are slack, it will bow tie no matter how good we are. Regardless of kite model. And that does not launch, period. I did have wrapped foils with the lines around them more than any issues ever with leis in last 10y. To be fair, I used to sell a lei after few seshs if I did not like it. This were past, good times.
We are all tolerating this because of xyz reasons. Including myself.
These users thanked the author downunder for the post:
sshantt (Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:30 am)
Rating: 6.67%

Breze
Medium Poster
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:53 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Weight: 90kg
Style: Foiling
Gear: Foils&Tubes
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby Breze » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:03 am

Hi Sshantt
You are looking for a foilkite to get going when your 10m Alula Roam doesn`t pull you onto the foil?
Or a better upwind, Vmax etc.Or you want a foil to replace the Roam with a better lowend but also a 11kn range?

Few things to say about the lifespan which weren`t mentioned jet.
The thin bridles ( all lines on a kite) never stretch, they allways shrink. The coating of the thin FS bridles can get damaged very fast if they get kinked 180°
This can happen if you produce a line nest and pull on sleeves and get knots in the Liros DC100/60. A good pack down procedure(not kinking fabric and bridles) is also key for a long lifespan of a foil . Sand and dust can be bad for the Sprenger or Ronstan pulleys, if you land with dry pulleys on thicker sand or grass they last forever. The internal construction of the Soul is very robust, much stronger than your Diablo or the Ozones.There is a reason why the FS are a bit heavier than the lighter but weaker constructions . With common sense there is no danger to rip the seams or cells if the Soul is full of water. ((Common sense and experience should prevent that too)
Never you will have to tune the Soul monthly if you handle the bridles right. You can check the long MT once after few hours of use and then after one year, more or less. Don`t wash the kite if it was in saltwater. Let it dry in the shade.Why noodling around the poor kite twice as often? When dry, gently shake the sand off, roll it , don`t compress it and the next time flying it the sand will fall out.

Three of my buddies own the 15m Soul, one of them on TT/ directional only. For him it`s the most important kite bc of his wind range.
The other two are 90% on the hf, with a full range of tubes, 14m Ultra, 13m Juice, 12m,11m,10m Pivot,... they barely use their 15m Souls.
Why? Lack of experience with foils. And more importand if they use their Souls then the wind is light and on- off, their desperate minds hungry for a session , of course then they swimm a lot.Yes the 15m Soul pulls their 90 kg (naked) on the foil when their bigger tube won`t, and 16-18 kn gusts are rideable but the 15m Soul has a thinner sweet spot than the 10m Soul which i use very often.
The 10m i can use when they are on their bigger tubes, with better success if it`s on & off. But with 16 years of foilkite experience.
The larger, thinner ,racier foilkites are imho better ( range, speed, jumping) but are expensive bc a foil newbe will have no fun with an older model.
The development of the new freerace foilkites like Sonic3 or Chrono4 (with the same fabric like the FS x-light) makes it possible for non pros to enter these fields of performance but they cost some money.

To be honest to you, you have already one of the best kites for having low to mid wind fun. With a little more exercise( and longer lines) you will lower your needed wind speed by one or two knots.
If you want more zoom to your Roam get a Sonic3 11 or bigger. If you want a versatile- performence- big wind range foil kite, which gives you a bit more low and same high end then think about a 10m Soul.
These users thanked the author Breze for the post:
sshantt (Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:20 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

sshantt
Rare Poster
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:21 pm
Kiting since: 2018
Weight: 180lbs
Local Beach: San Francisco
Gear: Taaroa Sword 1 Foil
Mike's Lab foilboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby sshantt » Sun Nov 01, 2020 4:54 pm

Breze wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:03 am
Hi Sshantt
You are looking for a foilkite to get going when your 10m Alula Roam doesn`t pull you onto the foil?
Or a better upwind, Vmax etc.Or you want a foil to replace the Roam with a better lowend but also a 11kn range?

Few things to say about the lifespan which weren`t mentioned jet.
The thin bridles ( all lines on a kite) never stretch, they allways shrink. The coating of the thin FS bridles can get damaged very fast if they get kinked 180°
This can happen if you produce a line nest and pull on sleeves and get knots in the Liros DC100/60. A good pack down procedure(not kinking fabric and bridles) is also key for a long lifespan of a foil . Sand and dust can be bad for the Sprenger or Ronstan pulleys, if you land with dry pulleys on thicker sand or grass they last forever. The internal construction of the Soul is very robust, much stronger than your Diablo or the Ozones.There is a reason why the FS are a bit heavier than the lighter but weaker constructions . With common sense there is no danger to rip the seams or cells if the Soul is full of water. ((Common sense and experience should prevent that too)
Never you will have to tune the Soul monthly if you handle the bridles right. You can check the long MT once after few hours of use and then after one year, more or less. Don`t wash the kite if it was in saltwater. Let it dry in the shade.Why noodling around the poor kite twice as often? When dry, gently shake the sand off, roll it , don`t compress it and the next time flying it the sand will fall out.

Three of my buddies own the 15m Soul, one of them on TT/ directional only. For him it`s the most important kite bc of his wind range.
The other two are 90% on the hf, with a full range of tubes, 14m Ultra, 13m Juice, 12m,11m,10m Pivot,... they barely use their 15m Souls.
Why? Lack of experience with foils. And more importand if they use their Souls then the wind is light and on- off, their desperate minds hungry for a session , of course then they swimm a lot.Yes the 15m Soul pulls their 90 kg (naked) on the foil when their bigger tube won`t, and 16-18 kn gusts are rideable but the 15m Soul has a thinner sweet spot than the 10m Soul which i use very often.
The 10m i can use when they are on their bigger tubes, with better success if it`s on & off. But with 16 years of foilkite experience.
The larger, thinner ,racier foilkites are imho better ( range, speed, jumping) but are expensive bc a foil newbe will have no fun with an older model.
The development of the new freerace foilkites like Sonic3 or Chrono4 (with the same fabric like the FS x-light) makes it possible for non pros to enter these fields of performance but they cost some money.

To be honest to you, you have already one of the best kites for having low to mid wind fun. With a little more exercise( and longer lines) you will lower your needed wind speed by one or two knots.
If you want more zoom to your Roam get a Sonic3 11 or bigger. If you want a versatile- performence- big wind range foil kite, which gives you a bit more low and same high end then think about a 10m Soul.
Hi Breze. This is awesome info that I really needed.. thank you 🙌🏻

I'm looking for the latter. A kite that will allow me to reach lower wind ranges, higher vmax and better upwind angle. There's also the idea of keeping lines attached and not needing a pump.. etc

My ultimate riding range is 7-22 knots. My Aluula caps out at 9.5-10 knots. I used to get 1 more lower end knot with my 10m Ultra actually in terms of getting on the foil. Common day ranges that I foil in are <40% 7-12 knots> <25% 13-15 knots> <25% 15-19 knots> and <10% 17-22 knots>. I don't ride in 6 knots in general but it would be nice to have a kite that handled it just so I know that I have a buffer.

Getting an additional kite just for 7-10 knots didn't really make sense so I decided to replace rather than supplement. I thought the 15m Soul would cover me between 7-17 knots while an 8m Aluula Roam would cover me from 14-23. However alot of people love their 6m Soul since it's playful and can be backstalled for easy drift. I wonder if I would be better served with a 15m Soul and a 6 or 7m Soul to supplement it.

As for lifespan. I launch and land on grass and pack my kites in an extremely organized way... I have a bit of OCD. I generally keep flying my kites if they're ever wet until they're completely dry before landing. I feel like with what you said above, I should have a long lasting setup 😄
Breze wrote: To be honest to you, you have already one of the best kites for having low to mid wind fun. With a little more exercise( and longer lines) you will lower your needed wind speed by one or two knots.
If you want more zoom to your Roam get a Sonic3 11 or bigger. If you want a versatile- performence- big wind range foil kite, which gives you a bit more low and same high end then think about a 10m Soul.
Given what I mentioned above, what would you recommend? I actually ordered a 15m Soul already, but I can return it and get something else if you think my above strategy might not be the best. Also, I'm open to a Sonic3 if I can possibly get better range.

Edit:

The Sonic3 13m has a 6-20 knots range on their website.. is this something I can actually attain once I'm used to the kite? If this is true then maybe I can skip having two kites and just live with that range. Or maybe I can supplement it with a 6m Soul

I know there's a steep learning curve with the Sonic3, but is it impossible to jump straight to it from LEIs? Keep in mind I had a Diablo v1 and learned to relaunch and deal with the wingtips even with the bridles out of tune. Albeit for a short few weeks where I had 8 hours overall flying it.

Breze
Medium Poster
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:53 pm
Kiting since: 2003
Weight: 90kg
Style: Foiling
Gear: Foils&Tubes
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 45 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby Breze » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:53 am

Short answer: The 15m Soul with 8m Alula Roam with 40% 7-12kn 80kg freeriding/learning on 1000qcm HF is not a pefect match of kites imho.

Long version: Benny Bölli designer of the Soul wanted to build a "Volkswagen Golf" foilkite for a wide spectrum of users, easy to use for TT LEI converters
and foilers. The 10m Soul was the design platform .The bigger 12,15,18m,21m are the "to go" seizes for TT riders.
9m,8m,6m have a diff aspect ratio for better turning and easy to use in turbulent conditions.
The 10m as the platform has the ar of the bigger ones, the thickness of the profile is in the sweet spot for the right mix of performance and user friendliness. The profile of 12m and up, is imho too fat and therefore not ideal for mainly foiling, with 80kg/ 1000qcm freeriding/learning.

The "right" user of the 15m Soul on HF would be a heavy 95 Kg plus guy, wanting / needing the V8 (Turbo)diesel starting power, in gusty, tubulent, inland spots, where he dont`want to use a racier profile. He would like permanet pulling force and floaty jumps.

The HF race guy would choose in the given wind conditions the biggest seize of a full on race profile.15m-23m

The 13m of a Sonic2/3 sounds like a good in between size for freeriders, but it isn`t.
The thin race profile is so fast through the window that a 80kg/ 1000qcm non race foiler comes easily out of the water and onto the foil with 11m Sonic3.The power spike of a 13m Sonic above 15kn is scary huge, turning slower, less userfriendly wind range.
The desicion btw 10m Soul/ 11m Sonic3 would involve the direction of your future foiling ambitions and wind conditions. Turbulent: Soul. Non drifting wind directions with a bit more low : Sonic3 11m. Absolutely sufficient performance ( with an Armstrong 1050), easy turning, relaunch, trim, upper range, drifting abilities:Soul10
Sonic3 11m : High speed on the course, bc of the thin raceprofile higher velocity when the kite is turning & accelerating - more power spike.Jumps get easily higher, with less technic then the Soul.Good relaunch and handling for this class of foil.
Combo of 10m Soul/ Sonic11 with 9 or 8 or 7 m Tube gives a good range with more or less overlap.Imho no need for a bigger seize for you
These users thanked the author Breze for the post (total 3):
a99 (Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:32 am) • sshantt (Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:08 pm) • wheat (Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:11 am)
Rating: 20%

TomW
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3553
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:43 pm
Kiting since: 2001
Local Beach: Vejbystrand, Lomma
Gear: TW Surfboards hydrofoil board 110
Gong Veloce M, 100cm carbon mast
Ozone Hyperlink V1 7m
Hyperlink V2 9m, 13m
Concept Air Wave 4,5m
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Sweden
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 181 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby TomW » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:06 pm

You're asking about souls. I've not used them, but using ozone hyperlinks, and referring to your general question about hydrofoiling with foil kites. I have friends using souls side by side with me. I can tell you the published top end wind range is not realistic at 80kg and 1000cm foil for freeride. Take 4 knots off it.

Life time of foil kite: I'll bet you will have significant reduction of air tightness and stability of kite due to various wear and tear on bridles and fabric after 700 hours. That's a a lot of time in the UV and use. Consider that you will drop the kite in surf, do some swimming with water in kite and thrash it on the beach during those hours. I wouldn't expect any kite, foil or not, to live longer than that. Be realistic.

The 15m soul is too big for freeride foiling unless you are hunting 4-5 knots. Even then it's not the right kite for that.

I'm using a 13m foil kite for 7-12 knots. A 9m for 12-18, and a 6m for 16-24 knots., 4,5m in 22 to 30 knots. shift to 15m lines on 6m foil kite in higher winds.
These users thanked the author TomW for the post:
sshantt (Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:58 am)
Rating: 6.67%

sshantt
Rare Poster
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:21 pm
Kiting since: 2018
Weight: 180lbs
Local Beach: San Francisco
Gear: Taaroa Sword 1 Foil
Mike's Lab foilboard
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby sshantt » Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:26 pm

Thanks Breze and tomW. Very helpful. Breze your breakdown helped me a lot!

After a long call with Flysurfer, I decided to get an 11m Sonic 3 based on Brezes and Flysurfers recommendation. I recognise it's a technical kite that has its downsides, but I feel like I can learn and adapt in due time if I'm careful. The wind range and upwind angle are both very important to me. I also feel like having the ability to backstall more easily as well as it's speed through the window will come in handy... Amongst other things.

Having managed the Diablo v1's wingtip folds as well as bowties in deep water countless times, I know I'm somewhat prepared for the downsides I'm expecting the Sonic 3 to have.

I will report back and let you know how it goes after my initial sessions 😃

airsail
Frequent Poster
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:57 am
Weight: 80kg
Local Beach: Queens Beach North, Queensland, Australia
Favorite Beaches: Queens North, I don’t travel much
Style: Foiling
Gear: Sonic 3, Sonic 2, Soul, BRM Clouds
Lift and Levitaz foils
Carbonco and North boards
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 41 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Foil Kite Lifespan and Wind Range

Postby airsail » Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:17 am

sshantt wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:26 pm
Thanks Breze and tomW. Very helpful. Breze your breakdown helped me a lot!

After a long call with Flysurfer, I decided to get an 11m Sonic 3 based on Brezes and Flysurfers recommendation. I recognise it's a technical kite that has its downsides, but I feel like I can learn and adapt in due time if I'm careful. The wind range and upwind angle are both very important to me. I also feel like having the ability to backstall more easily as well as it's speed through the window will come in handy... Amongst other things.

Having managed the Diablo v1's wingtip folds as well as bowties in deep water countless times, I know I'm somewhat prepared for the downsides I'm expecting the Sonic 3 to have.

I will report back and let you know how it goes after my initial sessions 😃
Check out Kite Elements, they do all the Flysurfer ex demo gear. Just picked up a 15mtr Sonic 3, nice discount on new price and doesn’t look like it’s been flown.
These users thanked the author airsail for the post:
sshantt (Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:58 am)
Rating: 6.67%


Return to “Foil Kites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest