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Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

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Peter_Frank
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Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Dec 12, 2020 9:35 pm

I think it was better to make a new post, eventhough discussed slightly here.

In terms of kitefoiling low end, how does the small double skin kites compare to single skins lighter kites in the small sizes?

I have always been sure the 4-5-6 m2 racefoil (or other double skin relatively okay performant foil kites Soul or similar) kites would give you even better lowend, than the Peak4 or FireFly kites.
On cost of ease and drift of course - but that is not the topic here, only how low can you go.

But when reading in here, and talking to friends, and seeing what they ride, something seems odd, as they seem to need a bigger kite than us using Peak4 kites, even with the same foilwing...

The more peak power (for its size) a kite can generate, the lower wind you can foil.

In the medium sizes 10 to 12 m2, nothing beats the racefoil kites in terms of lowend, because of that.

But in supersmall sizes (I dont know it there ARE racefoilkites below 7 m2?) it does not seem to be the same, or what do you guys/girls say?

Before foiling, over 15 years ago, I had a 3 m2 foilkite, which had HEAPS of power when flown through the window.

Assume double skin foilkites same size got the same today, so would be the very best for riding in the lightest wind with the smallest kite?

I have doubts about whether this is true or not now, as said...

They might be more tricky to fly of course, but that is not the question.

8) Peter

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby gl » Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:17 pm

The only comparison that I could do would be between my 4 metre Firefly and my 4.5 m wave. I can get going earlier with the 4.5 wave but then have to keep moving it through the window to keep power. It is harder to get going with the Firefly but once up on foil I have much more power with the kite parked. So at the lower end of the wind range I prefer the Firefly because there is much more power once up on the foil. On really gusty days I prefer the wave kite. It has greater depower for the gusts but I can still keep going in the lulls by diving the kite through the power zone. I'm not sure if that's what you were after but that's my experience with the two kites.

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby geron » Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:05 am

I would hope Peter try’s the Born race star+ jaja... so that we could find out about a higher aspect single skin (5 or 7m) is there a demo somewhere?

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby a99 » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:06 pm

As you know born kites also has Nasa star type kite, as i understand it’s very powerfull kite in very light wind, also very lightweight. Why nobody using Nasa star in foiling? Nobody tried it?

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby geron » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:22 pm

Hi a99; the Nasa is not a depower kite (it does not have a bar that you can trim the back lines in relation to the front ones to depower or ¨luff" the kite) (the bridle system in that kite doesn't work that way; it is a "fixed bridle" system), to my understanding, it would be similar to having a depower kite unhooked all the time. The Race Star+ on the other hand, is a very similar design to the Peak4 only with an aspect ratio of 6 instead of 4. It is a full single skin (it doesn't have the double skin tips of the peak4); not having any areas of double skin would make it (in my opinion) potentially easier to relaunch (a la Peak4) since the tips of the peak4 always get filled easily when in the water.
All this is theory, we need a demo from Peter haha

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby a99 » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:29 pm

geron wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:22 pm
Hi a99; the Nasa is not a depower kite (it does not have a bar that you can trim the back lines in relation to the front ones to depower or ¨luff" the kite) (the bridle system in that kite doesn't work that way; it is a "fixed bridle" system), to my understanding, it would be similar to having a depower kite unhooked all the time. The Race Star+ on the other hand, is a very similar design to the Peak4 only with an aspect ratio of 6 instead of 4. It is a full single skin (it doesn't have the double skin tips of the peak4); not having any areas of double skin would make it (in my opinion) potentially easier to relaunch (a la Peak4) since the tips of the peak4 always get filled easily when in the water.
All this is theory, we need a demo from Peter haha
Thanks. I saw that Nasa has 3 lines, you can partly depower form of kite, but its of course quite limited. If someone will build depower Nasa whan it will be definitely best light wind kite (despite race double ul foils). As i know Peter building kite for kiting, but probably it will be not dedicated for foiling:( in my opinion for him better would be to build for foiling oriented kite as to build good for kiting kite i think is to much compeeting products in that segment.

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby geron » Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:40 pm

a99 wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:29 pm
I saw that Nasa has 3 lines, a partly depower form of kite, but its of course quite limited. If someone will build depower Nasa then it will be definitely best light wind kite (despite race double ul foils).
I think this also (a 3 line depower kite, all single skin, without stiff or semi stiff battens) this would be the best possible kite to aspire for.
Can this be achieved?? I hope so....

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby jakemoore » Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:24 pm

gl wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:17 pm
The only comparison that I could do would be between my 4 metre Firefly and my 4.5 m wave. I can get going earlier with the 4.5 wave but then have to keep moving it through the window to keep power. It is harder to get going with the Firefly but once up on foil I have much more power with the kite parked. So at the lower end of the wind range I prefer the Firefly because there is much more power once up on the foil. On really gusty days I prefer the wave kite. It has greater depower for the gusts but I can still keep going in the lulls by diving the kite through the power zone. I'm not sure if that's what you were after but that's my experience with the two kites.
I think gl's description is perfect based on my experience with 3m CA_Wave and 3m Peak both picked up second hand out of curiosity. For me I am riding the Peak in 20 knots plus and the CA_Wave in 25 knots plus with windswell waves and longshore current that come with a beach break and side on winds. I can get going in 20 on the CA_Wave but can't traverse foamy whitewater. Hyperlink 5 and 7 also come to mind. The absolute low end is excellent if the water is flat and the wind is clean. Its harder to keep kite power compared to tube kites or single skin especially if waves. But if you can keep the kite moving you are riding. In these conditions I have gone back to tube kites. The strut less tubes have weight comparable to the Hyperlink and the durability to survive the washing machine. Peaks are the clear winner with drift but less risk of total loss and for me its a more optimal trade off.

On the other hand the closed cell foil kites also offer incredible top end wind range. They don't seek the water when depowered and they can go much faster without getting overpowered. For me 13m Chrono V3 goes from about 6-17 knots and I'm guessing the racers and jumpers would take it in a bit more wind. Contrast with 11m peak which for me was about 10-12 knots and the entire time I am edging hard upwind to avoid overspeed or riding down wind in a chicken-jibe. The funny thing for me with the giant Peak is I could go out in light winds and no matter what fly the kite to shore. The Chrono was regular cloth and as soon as I lost enough wind to no longer achieve water start, I had to loop the kite just to keep it in the air on the way to shore.

13m Chrono and 5 or 7 hyperlink could easily be a 2 kite quiver but its nice to ride the right size kite and that depends on what you are working on. So the issue may be less that the people riding closed cell kites need a bigger kite rather they can ride a bigger kite and want the power. I have a 15 coming and I don't think it will extend my low end much, but I chose to replace the 13 with a lighter and more waterproof kite. I went bigger because I would enjoy a little more lift to achieve tacks.

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:46 pm

Thanks for the answers till now, interesting....

It seems only very few have really small racekites, and if they dont exist, the next best thing, higher AR freeride kites.

How does a 5 m2 Hyperlink do in terms of going as low as possible, worse or the same or a lot better than say a Peak4 in 5 m2?

Or the smallest Soul in 6 m2, is it a powerhouse that can start in maybe under 9 knots for the average weight on a surf foil?

Or is it an upwind high wind kite that has less low end, but HUGE range?

I can see racekites are usually not smaller than 8 m2.... But still cost a fortune !!!

Interesting to hear experiences, as said, I have seen one with an 8 m2 Soul, finding it too small, when I could just ride (lowest end) with a 5 m2 Peak4.
That does not make sense, if a small Soul has a lot more power than a similar sized Peak4.

This is one of the reasons I ask.

Could be asked as noted: Which kite can be the smallest, and have the most (peak)power for hydrofoiling?

One would think it would be a 5 m2 high AR racekite, but these does not exist - and if, would they have a lot more (hydrofoil)power, or not?

Reason I put hydrofoil in parenthesis, is because grunt is useless, unless for ease and beginners.

So these very characteristics that made supersmall crazy fast kites useless for TT or older boards, suddenly could have a revival :D

8) Peter

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby geron » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:24 am

Concept air has a Leader Cruize 7 M race foil kite or the pulsión free ride foil 6m or 3.69 m


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