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Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

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drsurf
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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby drsurf » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:43 pm

tomtom wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:32 pm
Soul 8 is MUCH more powerfull than Peak 5
FRS 9 is slightly more powerfull static and have quite more peak power than Peak 8
Soul 8 is about same power than FRS 9

all from personal direct experience

FRS is better kite than Peak in 8m+ sizes /for hydrofoil/ in everything except static stability /hang in air/
I've used the Soul 6m and own a 10m Soul and sure they both have a lot of power, but on a surf foil in my experience I don't need or want all that power, I want just enough power and fast turning manoeuvrability. In the lighter end of their wind range both these Souls are very sluggish turning and can easily stall and even fall when gybing on a wave and riding it. There is too much weight in a twin skin foil and inertia of the air within compared to a Peak4 to ever compete in responsiveness.

Twin skin foils don't drift enough and they don't respond quickly at the edge of the window. They also accelerate a little when sheeting out as they hunt for the edge of the window which is not desirable when you want to depower quickly to turn fast enough to avoid running aground in shallow water, avoid an obstacle or to slow down and hold position on a wave.

For me I use a Peak4 size with just enough power to get me up on the foil. Then I can use apparent wind to give me all the power I need to get upwind and foil wherever I want. Any more power is a pain in the arse and just gets in the way of surf foiling. A Peak4 just gets out of the way and hangs about while you foil. I don't want to be dragged around by a powerful kite, I want to use the foil as much as possible.

This puts me in a position between kitefoilers being dragged around by powerful kites and wing foilers who don't like a kite because it's in the way when they're on wave and like the wing as it can trail behind them. The Peak4 gives me the best of both worlds, enough power to use a tiny board and a not too large surf foil, kite gets out of the way when on a wave and I don't have to pump up a wing, (which costs more than a Peak4), and I don't need a larger buoyant board with a larger surf foil which needs more wind.

There seems to be a difference in what people desire from their foiling setup. There are also no doubt a lot of variables apart from the kite with regard to hydrofoils, wind and water conditions, weight, skill and what you like to do. I know I chose to move to an area renowned for its good wind and water conditions 20+ years ago, what a great decision that was :D

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby seppalord » Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:57 pm

tomtom wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:32 pm
Soul 8 is MUCH more powerfull than Peak 5
FRS 9 is slightly more powerfull static and have quite more peak power than Peak 8
Soul 8 is about same power than FRS 9

all from personal direct experience

FRS is better kite than Peak in 8m+ sizes /for hydrofoil/ in everything except static stability /hang in air/
Hi Tomtom,
given your experience with the mentioned kites, what would you suggest for a low wind alternative after the peak4 in 5 m?
I have the 8m p4 but the low peak power is a bummer.

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby Carlos_C » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:18 pm

Still Just learning to hydrofoil.....but soon I'll give my Flysurfer Maniac 3mt a test....this is a 20 year old low aspect closed cell kite - should be a laugh anyway

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby joriws » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:52 pm

Herman wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:58 pm
As you said Inertia of the air in the closed cell at ~1.225 kg/cubic meter is not insignificant.
Let's take Flysurfer figures of Soul 18m and estimate avg chord/thickness to get very rough volume:
span 10,2m * avg chord 1,8m * avg thickness 0,3m => 5.5m3 volume * 1,225kg/m3 => 6,8kg inertial mass of air + kite fabric/bridle/mixer 3,1kg => 9.9kg inertial mass. So 1/3 is fabric and 2/3 is air in inertial mass.

Peak4 is ~10 times less inertial mass on accelerations, but also on flywheeling 10x less energy stored in moving kite. This kinetic energy is 408J if kite flies 10m/s, just this energy lifts 85kg person 49cm up if fully convertible to potential energy. For Peak4 same potential energy gain is 4cm. Maybe some next time a energy graph would be nice.

Sure Soul 6m inertial mass is much smaller when compared to Soul 18m.
5,48m * 0,8m * 0,20m => 0,9m3 => 1,1kg (air) + 1,42kg (kite) => 2,5kg.. Which in energy equation transfers to lifting 85kg kiter's center of mass 15cm if inertial mass flies 10m/s.

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:06 pm

seppalord wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:57 pm
tomtom wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:32 pm
Soul 8 is MUCH more powerfull than Peak 5
FRS 9 is slightly more powerfull static and have quite more peak power than Peak 8
Soul 8 is about same power than FRS 9

all from personal direct experience

FRS is better kite than Peak in 8m+ sizes /for hydrofoil/ in everything except static stability /hang in air/
Hi Tomtom,
given your experience with the mentioned kites, what would you suggest for a low wind alternative after the peak4 in 5 m?
I have the 8m p4 but the low peak power is a bummer.

Out of curiosity, what IS your lowend with the Peak4 in 8 m2?

I ride in 8 knots, with an 11 or 1200 wing and 78 kg.

Hardly never use my 12 m2 strutless tube anymore, eventhough it works in 7-8 knots, but the P4 is so much faster to rig and pack, that I sometimes go directly from my 8 m2 to a 15 m2 UL double skin that works in 5 to 7 knots, and can use it in 7-8 if I have to (but not fun).

I have gotten lazy, as using my 12 m2 strutless is actually really fun in this narrow gap 7-8 knots, maybe I will use it again.

Agree other UL kites works better up in these bigger sizes, than the single skins, if you look away from the ability to get safely ashore when wind drops, but I have a hard time believing I can go much lower than 8 knots with an 8 m2, or am I wrong?

A bit outside the topic though, as in these bigger sizes we KNOW double skin kites usually deliver more power.

8) Peter

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:26 pm

Peak only come into contention at the point where the ability to throw them around starts to makes up for all the ways in which they are less efficient.

In low winds, upwind angle and peak power through the power zone are their weak points.

It used to be 11 knots on the 5m and you overcame both of those and have access to all their other fantastic traits.

Now it looks like that is down to 10 knots on the 6m.

I bet the 8-13 are fantastic on snow where you have easy access to apparent wind without needing to pull yourself up and out of the water first.

As to the Nasa wing concept. I bet it could be fun for downwinding, but that's about it. Upwind is still important!

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby seppalord » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:36 pm

Hi Peter, I have the same specs (wight and wing) and I guess my lowend is at ~9 knots with the p4 - 8m. I fly most of the time with 18m lines.

I'm considering a closed cell for twintip action. I hardly touched it the last 2 years, but when the conditions are right I would like to go out boosting from time to time.

I don't look for a kite with more lowend, rather then a kite with more versatility. Hence the question, what would fit my existing peak range of 4 and 5 m the best?

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:39 pm

seppalord wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:36 pm
Hi Peter, I have the same specs (wight and wing) and I guess my lowend is at ~9 knots with the p4 - 8m. I fly most of the time with 18m lines.

I'm considering a closed cell for twintip action. I hardly touched it the last 2 years, but when the conditions are right I would like to go out boosting from time to time.

I don't look for a kite with more lowend, rather then a kite with more versatility. Hence the question, what would fit my existing peak range of 4 and 5 m the best?

Sounds right for me too if 18 m lines only - I use 27 m lines on the 8, which counts for your missing 1 knot, and 21 m on the smaller ones.

Many kites will do better when up in 8 m2 (just be a bit more hassle to rig/pack and expensive) though.

I cant help you on this one, others must chip in, as I assume you seek a normal foilkite, and I dont like these so avoid them when possible.

I like playful fast (turning) kites on all board types, and light LEIs are way better in this respect IMO, in sizes above the Peaks 6 m2.

They just cant cope when wind is below 7 knots so an UL doubleskin needed here.

Personally I would get a superlight 10 m2 LEI kite on longer lines above the 5 and/or 6 Peak4, but just me, I know I am odd :wink:

Okay, maybe slightly off topic...

8) Peter

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby tomtom » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:27 am

Simply put - Peaks are not more powerful m2 to m2 than Souls/FRS - they are about equal /max 10% difference/

Maybe if you are inexperienced Peak can have more accesible power at lower kite speed.

FRS have much better handling than Soul. FRS 9 is faster turning than both 8 Soul and 8m Peak. Soul have best aerodynamical performance.

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Re: Kitefoil, double skin - single skin Peak/FireFly?

Postby Janus » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:39 am

seppalord wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:36 pm
Hi Peter, I have the same specs (wight and wing) and I guess my lowend is at ~9 knots with the p4 - 8m. I fly most of the time with 18m lines.

I'm considering a closed cell for twintip action. I hardly touched it the last 2 years, but when the conditions are right I would like to go out boosting from time to time.

I don't look for a kite with more lowend, rather then a kite with more versatility. Hence the question, what would fit my existing peak range of 4 and 5 m the best?
What are your boosting TT wind conditions? and weight?


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