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Soul V2?

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Matty V
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Re: Soul V2?

Postby Matty V » Mon May 03, 2021 6:52 am

Gestalt wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:17 am
andylc wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 10:41 pm
Forgive me for being thick - it would be great if someone could work out how to get a foil kite like the Soul to turn faster. I’m not sure I quite get why this is not possible. The Soul in particular once inflated is a really solid kite in the sky, so why is there not a way to make a bridle system that will make it turn a bit less like the Titanic especially in the larger sizes?
I wonder if anyone has experimented around with a hybrid foil/lei design. Where you could use something like Aluula to provide a strong rigid frame (with or without bladder) and use the light foil fabric with ram air intakes (still using a closed cell design) to create the rest of the wing/canopy so it maintains it's high aspect ratio and boosting properties. If it was creatively engineered in the right way, I wonder if Aluula could be used to replace for example the fiberglass rods (as in the VMG) to create more structural rigidity. You could possibly dramatically reduce bridles with this kind of construction, increase rigidity, increase responsiveness, etc.

Aluula at 82 g/m2 may still not be light enough however. We may need to wait for a new material that has similar properties to Aluula and is closer in weight to the fabric being used in the foils now which is in the low ~30's g/m2. My hope is that new materials will give rise to new designs that are just not possible with current technology.
Yup done by F2 back in the early 2000s lei center section, ram air wing tips
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Re: Soul V2?

Postby cor » Mon May 03, 2021 9:42 am

I don´t get it. Why should anyone who owns a Soul 1 get a Soul 2? What´s the selling proposition?

The only difference I see is the fabric which is more durable. But why is there such a focus on durability? I fly my Soul 10 since 2018 frequently and never have I thought "that kite needs to be more durable!". It looks like new except the white has faded a bit. With LEIs becoming lighter and lighter (Aluula, Penta TX, etc...) I was hoping that FS would make a step forward to lighter foil kites. I would´ve loved if FS released two Versions of the Soul: A normal one which is more durable and a second one which is as light as Kauper´s Falcon for riders who only want to Hydrofoil and looking for a good light wind experience.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby Adventure Logs » Mon May 03, 2021 10:27 am

cor wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 9:42 am
I don´t get it. Why should anyone who owns a Soul 1 get a Soul 2? What´s the selling proposition?

The only difference I see is the fabric which is more durable. But why is there such a focus on durability? I fly my Soul 10 since 2018 frequently and never have I thought "that kite needs to be more durable!". It looks like new except the white has faded a bit. With LEIs becoming lighter and lighter (Aluula, Penta TX, etc...) I was hoping that FS would make a step forward to lighter foil kites. I would´ve loved if FS released two Versions of the Soul: A normal one which is more durable and a second one which is as light as Kauper´s Falcon for riders who only want to Hydrofoil and looking for a good light wind experience.
Same reason why people get new models and literally the only thing has changed is their graphics. Personally, I've used my 6m so much the graphics are wearing off so I'm getting a V2 6m. I also ordered a 8m because I regret selling my Soul1 8m awhile ago and wanted a replacement. I wish they did a 7m though.

People are bitching that this isn't an update like from the Sonic2 to Sonic3. That was a huge change that took Flysurfer a long time to achieve and in reality the Sonic3 is a completely different kite in my opinion.

This is more like a SonicFR -> Sonic2 or Speed3 -> Speed4 Lotus. Just a fabric upgrade plus a couple tweaks. The problem is fabric is so advanced now that you really can't upgrade it much and make as much as a difference as in the past.

I talked to Armin about having something like a Soul PRO where the kite isn't overbuilt for beginners like the normal ones are(remember that's what the kite's audience is for). His response "That is a Idea but we fight at the moment to delver the high demand." So maybe in the future we will have something like that, kinda like the Speed ULs in the past. Personally I wouldn't expect something like that for a year or two(just judging by how FS is).

If you can afford it, and want to upgrade, so be it. Remember the wing tips have been tweaked so that might make a difference. The kitelife didn't go over certain things like drift and whatnot. That might make a difference and if so, would be worth the upgrade for me. We shall see. Also judging on the wing tip folding issue I saw on their video, I don't believe the bridle was fully broken in.

Also even though the Soul2 is using heavier fabric, the weights published are the same in the larger kites as the last gen. Example: V1 and V2 21m are both 3.48kgs. Now if that's accurate, that means there's some internal tweaking too which could make a difference.

Sadly each gen can't be a major change and honestly I was happy with how the old Soul performed so I'm glad they didn't mess with it too much. You can be sure though that FS are watching this thread(even with the ban Toby has put on with FS) so hopefully we shall see something like a PRO soon. I highly doubt that though because when they did an update so quickly from SonicFR -> Sonic2, there was a huge backlash(with me included).

=Jason-

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby Janus » Mon May 03, 2021 11:57 am

Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:27 am
-- even with the ban Toby has put on with FS --
Did I miss something? serious? why?
:roll: PMU.. Toby.. ? :lol:

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby Adventure Logs » Mon May 03, 2021 12:02 pm

Janus wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 11:57 am
Adventure Logs wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:27 am
-- even with the ban Toby has put on with FS --
Did I miss something? serious? why?
:roll: PMU.. Toby.. ? :lol:
Because Flysurfer pulled funding. Why any video topics promoting FS gets removed.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby kitexpert » Mon May 03, 2021 10:20 pm

Adventure Logs wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 1:22 pm

I’m going to disagree with you here. First off, FS themselves has recommended UP TO 2cm shorter steering lines. This only helps in reality with the bar trimmed to full power, completely pulled in but it DOES make a big differences, no matter the size(In my experience riding the Soul 6, 8, 10, and 15m).

Second stiffness can make a big impact on drift because the kite will hold its shape better which foilkites have a tendency to have a problem with. Why the Soul drifts better than older gens is because it doesn’t distort as much when riding into it. If the stiffness improves this even more then it WILL improve drift.

Also in theory, a stiffer shape would turn slightly better. If there’s less flex in the canopy, then a turning movement would transfer faster. We shall see.
Shortening 2cm of back lines is easy safe advice, it doesn't do much but also no harm. In principle it is suspicious because lines shrink, sag, there is different kite sizes and different wind strengths. If you use bigger and real adjustment you can always return it to your taste/conditions by using trimmer, then only disadvantage is you lose some trimmer range.

Stiffness of foil kite is not dependent on cell fabrics, upper and lower skins. And it is questionable how much this relates to better drift capabilities, if at all.

If Soul drifts better than for example Speeds it is because it has different shape. Different airfoil (thicker, more stable) and also longer chord at the center of kite. LE stiffeners (RFT) may be also beneficial, who knows.

Turning speed is definitely not dependent on cell fabrics and because inner parts under tension are already pretty stiff there is not much to be done
Last edited by kitexpert on Mon May 03, 2021 10:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby kitexpert » Mon May 03, 2021 10:36 pm

andylc wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 10:41 pm
Forgive me for being thick - it would be great if someone could work out how to get a foil kite like the Soul to turn faster. I’m not sure I quite get why this is not possible. The Soul in particular once inflated is a really solid kite in the sky, so why is there not a way to make a bridle system that will make it turn a bit less like the Titanic especially in the larger sizes?
Especially large size foil kites are very heavy kites, they have many kgs of air inside. So you just can't accelerate (turn) that kind of thing rapidly (unless you use it in high winds and weight 200kg to create enough counter force).

Big foil kite also has very wide wing span, of course it makes turning radius also big. Big wing span is key to power in low winds so you can't change that either.

Bridle design can't help here at all, or anything else.

More interesting question is why smaller sizes are also slower than LEI's. Single skin design of LEI kite is more effective at the start of turn, when airspeed is low. LEi's also have much more canopy curve (shorter wing span) and design is stiffer. Also method of turn is different, there is twist in LEI when foil kite more like brakes inner side of kite.

So concluison is you can't make kite like Soul much faster turning, if you try to do it it won't be same kite any more because some properties will get worse, even much worse.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby Kristan » Tue May 04, 2021 6:32 am

kitexpert wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:36 pm
So concluison is you can't make kite like Soul much faster turning, if you try to do it it won't be same kite any more because some properties will get worse, even much worse.
Or you can apply different mixer, like Paraavis did, which provides more input for the kite for less bar movement, increasing depower range and turning speed, while not changing the wing itself. The only drawback is increased bar pressure.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby SolarSet » Tue May 04, 2021 8:05 am

kitexpert wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:36 pm

More interesting question is why smaller sizes are also slower than LEI's. Single skin design of LEI kite is more effective at the start of turn, when airspeed is low. LEi's also have much more canopy curve (shorter wing span) and design is stiffer. Also method of turn is different, there is twist in LEI when foil kite more like brakes inner side of kite.
IMHO foil kites in smaller size are slower than even larger LEI because:

1. Foil kite has less wing surface that is responsible for turning kite (kite shape)
2. Foil kite are not as rigid structure as LEI from mixer which has 4 pulleys vs some LEI don't have any pulleys to kite structure which internal pressure is way smaller than LEI kites.

However, as a result of the above we get wider wind range as kite adjusts more to changeable windspeed conditions by adjust kite shape arch (more wind it opens itself more = bar sheet out) but this comes at cost of risk in kite collapsing, losing shape if wind if too gusty.

There is this noticeable difference when you first time jump on kite foil kite, unlike on LEI it doesn't rip you off water but is seems that vertical acceleration is slower/smoother and I would account it to softer frame and pulleys that foil kite has unlike LEI.

Hang time of foil kite is more to do with kite AR than fact it is foil kite IMHO.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby cglazier » Tue May 04, 2021 3:41 pm

I have a new 12m Soul v2 on order. Does anyone have any idea when the other sizes will be available?


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