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Soul V2?

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby Adventure Logs » Wed May 05, 2021 7:47 am

cglazier wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 3:41 pm
I have a new 12m Soul v2 on order. Does anyone have any idea when the other sizes will be available?
Like with the Soul V1, it’s gonna be a staggered release. Last time I got my 15m right at release and it was another month or so before I was able to get my hands on a 8m. Also depending on where you are in the world will effect when you get what.

I’ve been told maybe next week the 8m V2 will be stateside. No word yet on the 6m I also have on order.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby kitexpert » Wed May 05, 2021 10:31 am

Kristan wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 6:32 am
kitexpert wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:36 pm
So concluison is you can't make kite like Soul much faster turning, if you try to do it it won't be same kite any more because some properties will get worse, even much worse.
Or you can apply different mixer, like Paraavis did, which provides more input for the kite for less bar movement, increasing depower range and turning speed, while not changing the wing itself. The only drawback is increased bar pressure.

Image
These (and pulley bar) have been tried and they can help a bit in big kite sizes. But normal mixer is already enough to back stall medium sized kites and even too easily small kites (with usual bar sheeting range), so trying to back stall them even more doesn't make so much sense.

(Full back stalll heli-turns are more like a party trick of kiting so best to leave them out of this discussion)

It should be understood that turning speed of foil kite is mostly - if not fully - defined how fast "free" size of kite is able to fly through the turn. Mixer doesn't affect on that practically at all.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby kitexpert » Wed May 05, 2021 10:51 am

SolarSet wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 8:05 am
kitexpert wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 10:36 pm

More interesting question is why smaller sizes are also slower than LEI's. Single skin design of LEI kite is more effective at the start of turn, when airspeed is low. LEi's also have much more canopy curve (shorter wing span) and design is stiffer. Also method of turn is different, there is twist in LEI when foil kite more like brakes inner side of kite.
IMHO foil kites in smaller size are slower than even larger LEI because:

1. Foil kite has less wing surface that is responsible for turning kite (kite shape)
2. Foil kite are not as rigid structure as LEI from mixer which has 4 pulleys vs some LEI don't have any pulleys to kite structure which internal pressure is way smaller than LEI kites.

However, as a result of the above we get wider wind range as kite adjusts more to changeable windspeed conditions by adjust kite shape arch (more wind it opens itself more = bar sheet out) but this comes at cost of risk in kite collapsing, losing shape if wind if too gusty.

There is this noticeable difference when you first time jump on kite foil kite, unlike on LEI it doesn't rip you off water but is seems that vertical acceleration is slower/smoother and I would account it to softer frame and pulleys that foil kite has unlike LEI.

Hang time of foil kite is more to do with kite AR than fact it is foil kite IMHO.
Much correct here but that kite shape thing... When FS had Psycho4 it became more curved when depowered, so it became a bit smaller kite when wind was high.

LEI kites have massive range, pros use 9m kites in over 40kn. Stiff structure is reliable and handling on start and finish is safer and easier. I wouldn't go out with a foil kite in those kind of conditions.

If kite has a lot of canopy curve it usually tries to open it up when powered up. C-kites and late PL arcs (which are actually foil C-kites) do this most, there is additional boost in them.

One important reason why foil kites are slower to turn than LEI kites is foils very often fly further in WW, then there is not much power left to accelerate and turn. Kite which sticks closer to power zone is always ready to react.

In LEI's pulleys are not on steering line side of kite and they are justified allowing some wing movement (twist etc.). Last time I was on pulleyless LEI it felt a bit stiff in turns. But both (or all, there is many different ways to add pulleys in bridles) methods work. I just don't see that fundamentalism some have against pulleys in bridles very reasonable. Your steering lines are straight anyway (ok there is or was some exceptions)

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby SolarSet » Wed May 05, 2021 12:09 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 10:51 am


Much correct here but that kite shape thing... When FS had Psycho4 it became more curved when depowered, so it became a bit smaller kite when wind was high.
This make sense as when you lunch kite and its not inflated yet it has this C shape, there is much less power in kite but I think now they depower kite by opening it more and allowing it to move further to edge of WW.
FS doesn't seem to be showing promo videos with guys on TT and riding small foil kite sizes in high winds hence I'm sure they realised that they don't aim in rider on TT and +25kts although there is number of people who do it and seems happy.
I'm very curious how small foil kite rides in steady 20-30kts which we don't experience often in my local spots but there are some places where it would probably ride like a dream.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby nothing2seehere » Wed May 05, 2021 2:26 pm

^^ I think this is because the skills required to launch and land in high winds don't translate from riders who are converting from an LEI. Its bad publicity if a couple of people get dragged across the beach face first whilst learning the new skill.

Just watch people trying to learn how to drag launch an LEI in stable wind and you'll get an idea of how it could go wrong. At least with an LEI you can reduce the chance of problems with a launch assistant. Its tricky to find someone to act as an assistant for a launch with a foil kite.

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby kitexpert » Wed May 05, 2021 2:42 pm

SolarSet wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:09 pm
I think now they depower kite by opening it more and allowing it to move further to edge of WW.
Foil kite depower is same as it has been last 15 years. When you depower kite takes lower AoA and flies to the edge of WW. Nowadays kite shape doesn't change like it did with Psycho4, at least I haven't seen it happen.

How far to the edge kite flies depends on its L/D ratio and if it is stable enough to allow it. When kite flies very far risk to front stall collapse and overflying gets of course bigger. That is why race kites are not so easy to use, kiter has to be ready to react if kite is flying too far

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby jakemoore » Wed May 05, 2021 11:35 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:42 pm
SolarSet wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:09 pm
I think now they depower kite by opening it more and allowing it to move further to edge of WW.
Foil kite depower is same as it has been last 15 years. When you depower kite takes lower AoA and flies to the edge of WW. Nowadays kite shape doesn't change like it did with Psycho4, at least I haven't seen it happen.
Soul indeed has “triple depower” folding wingtips as did the psycho 4. The kite becomes more curved with depower. The effect is much less than Psycho 4 but confirmed by FS in the original soul discussion.

The wingtip folding can be tuned to more or less with the PMA adjusters inside the kite. I flew my 8 soul for some time with the bottom skin PMA short one knot and I joyed the faster turn and more direct depower. As the kite has aged, I prefer it on stock settings. When tuned to more dynamic wingtips, triple depower is more clearly visible but more it is still not nearly so noticeable as the Psycho 4
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Re: Soul V2?

Postby kitexpert » Fri May 07, 2021 11:45 am

jakemoore wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 11:35 pm
kitexpert wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:42 pm
SolarSet wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 12:09 pm
I think now they depower kite by opening it more and allowing it to move further to edge of WW.
Foil kite depower is same as it has been last 15 years. When you depower kite takes lower AoA and flies to the edge of WW. Nowadays kite shape doesn't change like it did with Psycho4, at least I haven't seen it happen.
Soul indeed has “triple depower” folding wingtips as did the psycho 4. The kite becomes more curved with depower. The effect is much less than Psycho 4 but confirmed by FS in the original soul discussion.

The wingtip folding can be tuned to more or less with the PMA adjusters inside the kite. I flew my 8 soul for some time with the bottom skin PMA short one knot and I joyed the faster turn and more direct depower. As the kite has aged, I prefer it on stock settings. When tuned to more dynamic wingtips, triple depower is more clearly visible but more it is still not nearly so noticeable as the Psycho 4
Ok, but it would be interesting to see it in pictures, powered up and depowered.

Earlier FS used to announce kite flying area in variable percentages, like 75...85% (of flat area). Not any more

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby Schietwedder » Fri May 07, 2021 10:24 pm

Anyone knows how that reduction in projected area when depowered is being done technically/physically?
Something with the towpoints far outside?

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Re: Soul V2?

Postby SolarSet » Sat May 08, 2021 12:01 pm

Looking at bridal design and pulleys it seems as if depowering kite is changing kite angle of attack, this affects kite position in WW and affects shape but I think it starts with change of angle and rest of are consequences not causes.

I’m working as engineer on Gas turbines and in somehow similar way you control gas turbine load by charging stationary blades angle and this changes power in very big simplification.


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