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Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

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dave1986
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Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby dave1986 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:49 pm

I've owned a few big foil kites (11m and 13m Chrono V3 Ultralight) and the benefit for light wind hydrofoil is obvious compared with LEI kites.

With smaller size foil kites such as 5m and 7m the benefits are less obvious to me as any kite will fly well in 15+knots required for these kites.

I'm interested to hear from anyone who uses small (5m-7m) double skin foil kites (such as Ozone Hyperlink/ Flysurfer Soul) for freeride hydrofoil... I'd like to understand what are the benefits and disadvantages of small double skin foil kites over small LEI's.

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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby Foil » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:08 pm

Well ! I have been trying to give you something that may be compelling, but I must admit I can only come up with small advantages but these are countered by some challenging disadvantages.

I have 5mtr hyperlink V1 ultralight, and a 7mtr v2 hyperlink

My 5mtr is my highwind kite, the 7 is not a highwind tool for me,
I bought the 7mtr for high winds but found its range was so large I regard it as my brisk airs fun kite, for over 15knts, although it is happy being taken out in steady winds much much lower, on a 633 wing,
some guys over 95 kg on flag beach have this 7mtr kite as their one kite quiver :o

My 5mtr comes out when the winds are over 20knts, I can take it up to around 29knts and it's still loads of fun with little or no depower engaged, but as soon as I have to depower a bit more, then the fun factor drops dramatically and I avoid downloops unless I feel a lull, getting hooked through the air at full thrust by a foil kite, even a 5mtr is a wild experience. I have not given much thought to maybe getting a smaller foil,
30knts for me on the open sea is about my limit, after that its not much fun, more like hanging on with kite high and bum cheeks clenched :lol:

I have had both small foils for a while now, well over a year, and both kites re-launch by "themselves" in stiff winds, the 5 just bounces back into the air, sometimes before I am ready, so no disadvantages with relaunch, 100% success for me

number 1 disadvantage against a small lei would be launch and land, launching these kites in their upper wind ranges is easy, but needs practice to get dialed in, landing in high winds again needs practice, and although you can land unassisted, an lei self landing is less stressful.

Body dragging out through shore break in onshore winds is the foil kites very strong point, it will never drop in a lull or when a wave pushes you back, and points high into wind pulling you through the worst mush at high speed to get to clear water,
Another foil kite plus is you drop the kite far less, I can run towards mine without too much slack line and if I do get slack line its much easier to "catch" the kite as it never tumbles down like an lei can

To hit the water with the small foil you have to steer it in, and if you roll the kite through the lines it flies just fine, no need to go ashore,
lift is always there with the 7mtr, It is a great boosting kite with softish landings possible, not too technical at all, boosting with the 5mtr is easy however its hard work to land without getting wet, same as a small lei.

Power delivery- a foils linear power delivery especially driving upwind is the number one advantage for me, so so smooth, silky smooth, high and fast, my lei kites just could not score as highly in this respect.

Some would say an lei is cheaper, however I need fewer foil kites and hardly ever need to change down or up like I used to when using lei ktes.

other obvious advantages is the lack of weight, 1.29kg for my 5mtr, 1.39kg for the 7mtr, half the weight of many 3 strut lei kites,
overall a smaller quiver of kites is required, so traveling light is easy, and walking to the water with kite tucked under your arm knowing you are more likely to have a kite that will work all day, along with the absence of the ruddy pump which might get a dog wash, or pinched is such a good feeling, cant remember the last time I needed to lug a quiver of kites down the beach for a session, o yes i can! when I had lei kites :D

But if all foil kite companies stopped making small foil kites, then going back to small lei kites would not be and issue, loved them! but I love small foil kites a bit more.

I would not consider a peak kite, they are good for some, but for me and where I sail, no thanks! tried one and I can see why they have a following, but as you can see from my likes above they are not for me.
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dave1986 (Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:07 pm)
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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby Adventure Logs » Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:42 pm

Have a Soul 6m that I absolutely love on my hydrofoil. The advantages of the small foils is the same as larger ones, just scaled down. Why I prefer a small foil.

No pumping and super fast setup/break down
Huge range(I can ride TT and HF on the same winds with this kite)
Drift/backstall ability/overall fun
Easier to travel with
Hangtime is usually better
Kites usually lighter
Kiteloops-smaller size means you can power loop easier which is fantastic fun

Here’s a vid i did this summer on my Soul 6m showing the playfulness and type of control you can have with it. Sorry about the audio, I’m working on a solution to cut some of the wind noise in the future.

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dave1986 (Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:07 pm)
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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby dave1986 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:05 pm

Thanks Foil and Adventurelogs - this is just the sort of information that I was looking for. I saw a 5m hyperlink which I was semi- tempted to buy. If I was planning a snowkite trip then I could probably justify it more easily.

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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby Foil » Sun Jan 17, 2021 3:42 am

dave1986 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:05 pm
Thanks Foil and Adventurelogs - this is just the sort of information that I was looking for. I saw a 5m hyperlink which I was semi- tempted to buy. If I was planning a snowkite trip then I could probably justify it more easily.
as you most likely know, the hyperlinks are dual purpose, closed cell and open cell for land and snow use, with a hidden 5th line attachment for unassisted landing on land, ideal for some the air intake trumpets just roll up and velcro back in seconds, must be a popular feature for these other sports.

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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby papasmerf » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:08 am

dave1986 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 3:49 pm
I've owned a few big foil kites (11m and 13m Chrono V3 Ultralight) and the benefit for light wind hydrofoil is obvious compared with LEI kites.

With smaller size foil kites such as 5m and 7m the benefits are less obvious to me as any kite will fly well in 15+knots required for these kites.

I'm interested to hear from anyone who uses small (5m-7m) double skin foil kites (such as Ozone Hyperlink/ Flysurfer Soul) for freeride hydrofoil... I'd like to understand what are the benefits and disadvantages of small double skin foil kites over small LEI's.
dave, i have a 7m hyperlink v1 UL. and i have a 11m chrono v3 UL. i also have strutless kites, ufo's(which i also think are amazing). the 7 and 11 are an amazing 2 kite quiver. in my opinion, in crappy gusty, switching winds.. i can self launch the foils a lot easier than the lei's with a tether. at 200 lbs and on a 1150 cm front wing, the 7 has an amazing range. 100% relaunch for me on the 7, so far,, i am sure sooner or later may not last forever.

i have zero problems self landing the foil kites,, if its nice wind,, backstall down,, if it's strong, pull quick release.

if i feel the wind in my face even remotely strong,, i use 7,, if i can hardly feel any wind.. 11. 7 works for me in the 12-14 ish mph and on up range, which surprised the heck out of me. the 11m is an amazing light wind kite.

only one bad session on my 7m in 20+ gusty, later discovered one of my pulley lines had disintegrated,, not sure if that what was causing the issue

nothing but good things to say about 7 hyperlink. used it the last three days.

and i 2nd Foil's advice, he knows these kites!
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dave1986 (Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:03 pm)
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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby Foil » Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:10 pm

Went out on the 7mtr Hyperlink today, dawn raid on our flat low tide lagoon till it flooded over then on to the open wavy sea,
17 knts to begin with but then the wind dropped to around 10knts for 45 mins, the 7 kept me going, then the wind returned, the waves built and I started humming beach boys tunes to myself.
Steve was out with me on his 7mtr chrono v3 ul, and we swapped over for a while, wow! the bar weight on the chrono was so light, insanely light! made my hyperlink feel bar heavy,(its not heavy, but compared to near zero bar pressure of the chrono it made me smile)
maybe that's why many say the hyperlinks feel so familiar when coming off lei kites,
It took me all of 20 seconds to get used to the superlight bar pressure, god! the little chrono is so smooth, dreamy smooth power delivery,
even though the bar pressure is so light, I still did not need to look at the kite, so predictable, so well behaved, no sudden power surges during downloop gybes -just one big long smile going round and easily "pinwheeling" the kite back for another fast silky gybe.
such a shame Ozone have stopped making the smaller chrono, 11mtr v4 is now the smallest size available, boosting was a surprise as it felt not too dissimilar to my same size hyperlink,it was Sunday today so I could not stop saying to myself "bejeseus! this little Chrono is divine"

Funny thing happened when we swapped kites, we swapped bars as well, big mistake! as my bar is bright orange on one side, so easy to see and grab during fast bar spinning, I got confused using steve's bar and grabbed the wrong side and splash the kite went down, oops, but a few seconds later up she went, easy peasy,
Then stupid me when we swapped back to our own kites and bars, I got confused yet again with bar end colours and grabbed the wrong end on my own bar, immediately I re-spun and grabbed the right side but just too late, I was just coming out of a very fast downloop jybe and the kite was skimming and skipping over the water with me trying to unstick it before I sank, i kept repeating, "saved it saved it" for ages then I started to sink, and the kite fell over, what a muppet!
but I retained my 100% small kite relaunch record, and up she went, she now is sitting in my kite drying room as in winter kites never dry properly without assistance from some form of extra heating.
wave riding with both these kites was brilliant, both of us often boosting good and high at the end of each wave set made the session even better, it is amazing how deep and fast you can ride in waves with both these small foils, neither of us even came near to dropping our kites in the waves, yes we tripped up a few times going over some big buggers but never dipping the kite in.
end of a perfect small foil kite, foil board day
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dave1986 (Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:03 pm)
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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby TomW » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:29 pm

The advantage in motion is the smoother power delivery, no flapping, bigger range.
I love my hyperlink v2 9m, but was never super happy with the V1 7m. Too much overlap with 9 and over 20knot on 20m lines it didn't want to move up to window edge, becoming a handful. Bought a 6m kitech FRS and it works better, same low end of 7m but much better at 22knots. Have a concept air wave 4,5m, but only used it 3 times in 25+ knots, and it works well.
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dave1986 (Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:18 pm)
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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby dave1986 » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:21 pm

Foil wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 5:10 pm
Went out on the 7mtr Hyperlink today, .....
Steve was out with me on his 7mtr chrono v3 ul, and we swapped over for a while, wow!
In what conditions would you choose to ride Hyperlink vs Chrono if you owned both in 7m /9m sizes. I've been toying (not seriously) with the idea of a 9m Chrono or Hyperlink.

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Re: Benefits of small double skin foil kites for freeride hydrofoil?

Postby Foil » Sat Jan 23, 2021 2:44 am

you would need to try them both and decide which you like better for your own style of sailing,
both kites are gems in 7mtr and 9mtr, I had the lightweight 9mtr chrono for a year and it became my favourite kite,
but the v2 hyperlink suited me better, for nearly all conditions,
that is because my priorities were suited more to the HLink 2 - easier to use- allows more mistakes - and the new cloth is better in all ways, relaunch is also easier, not by much but enough to matter to me,
steve prefers the chrono style, which suits race style riding, flying a bit higher upwind, more friendly for all the race style moves, tacks, more locked in feel, but also when just playing around on the waves then the chrono likes to join in.
If ozone start to make the v4 chrono in sizes under 11mtr then I will be very tempted to grab the 9mtr and keep it along with my 9 hlink 2, and use it on my faster wing set, for speed and boosting, my 11 mtr v4 chrono is just superb for this in lighter airs,
for example tomorrow is lagoon day for me, flat water, and wind direction is just right for very long distance fast blasting in good deep water that will suit my 101mast, fast wings, and my 11mtr chrono for locked in speed and boosting, however the wind may just be too much for my 11mtr chrono as the wind is building, so a 9mtr V4 chrono would be my dream kite just for that change down in size to keep the feel right for the conditions.
if it was wavy on the open sea then I would prefer to use my Hyperlinks, and 633 wing set, steve would still prefer his small chrono kites, or even his 9mtr R1 and also the 633 wing.
so, you need to decide for your own style, and preferences.
both are great kites,
and if a small v4 chrono comes out then the choice will be harder to make.
(both kites boost superbly)


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