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A second kite for snow and water?

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Sceotend
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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby Sceotend » Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:57 pm

Thanks. It's clear now that I have underestimated the challenge ahead. I'm sure I will save a lot of frustration and time following your advice.

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jumptheshark
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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:22 pm

I think a "grown up" could match the quick pace I witnessed with the local racers in their 20's. The gear is so much better now. They jumped right into race gear! long masts, small wings and full on tricky foil kites.

I think a dedicated novice with good conditions and a bit of time on their hands could pick up the basics on water pretty quickly, especially having some winter kiting under their belt. I would budget one season on water with a nice large TT and simple 12m LEI that relaunched easily. Season two on the water would keep the same kite but shift to a super easy entry level foil board. Nice and floaty with a big fat wing on a relatively short mast. Be up and flying in no time.

From there, Bob's your uncle.
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drsurf
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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby drsurf » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:25 pm

If you're learning to hydrofoil, the best way to short circuit some of the learning process is to learn to foil behind a boat or jetski. That way you can focus on learning foiling skills and not worry about the kite.

The same applies to learning to foil on a SUP or prone surf foil. With a good boat/ski driver you can be pulled at just the right speed to learn the balance skills and control of a foil without the variables of the kite, wind and waves.

I would actually recommend learning on a dedicated SUP foil board of approx 120 litres so you can be kneeling on the board when you start and then it's easy to stand up and start to feel the foil. This will speed up the learning process of any foiling discipline.
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Sceotend
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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby Sceotend » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:27 pm

I'm certainly a "grown up", it's downhill from here :). I'm dedicated but on the other hand I have almost zero experience on any board (snow, land or water). I will get the setup you suggested, let's see.

nate76
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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby nate76 » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:55 pm

I have now tried to buy a Pelican and an Empulse - but both are out of stock locally. I have been told that even the Little Cloud company doesn't have big Pelicans in stock and there are no imminent plans to manufacture more of them.

The Empulse has been discontinued. Tom (Little Cloud owner/designer) just had some more Pelicans made this last month - although I believe they may have sold out fast. I did have a few sent here to the US and currently have some available (1x7m, 2x10m, 2x13m).

The specifications of the Soul, Pelican, Empulse and Kitech FRS are quite close to each other (ar ~5). So, I'm trying to find out what are the practical differences between them. The Pelican and Empulse (maybe Kitech too) have adaptive valves, which I think, make them more suitable than e.g. the Soul for land/snow. So, I thought that maybe the both objectives (snow/water) could be accommodated with just one kite. I also thought about buying a secondhand LEI to specifically practice hydrofoiling but the wind is here very light and gusty in most days. The last time I saw a lot of LEIs on the ice while the foils just kept going. So, I probably would need to complement the LEI with another kite for light wind days. Also, I will have boat rescue option available at all times, which should help with a foil the times it won't relaunch.

So my preferences for a second (and first foil) kite in order of importance:

1. Light gusty wind kite for snowkiting (very important)
2. Good / excellent upwind
3. Easy to self-launch / self-land / fast setup
4. Easy to learn hydrofoiling / maybe kitesurfing / easy waterstart / relaunch
5. Progressing but at least somewhat beginner friendly
6. Stable
7. Durable
8. Affordable
9. Touring kite, pack small
10. Moderate lift to progress with safe baby jumps (less important)
While the Soul, Pelican, and Empulse appear similar on paper, they are very different kites. I recently did a write-up comparing the Gin Spirit to the Pelican - I think it would be worth reading to understand the differences in design intent (the Gin Spirit is going to be very similar to a Soul):

http://www.powerkiteforum.com/viewthrea ... #pid337813

Bottom line is that while all are good kites, stable kites, good for foilboarding - a kite like the Soul is going to have a more aggressive pop/lift that IMO is less desirable for a beginner or gusty winds/mountain use. But depending on where you plan to kite, it might be OK.

The Pelican was designed for mountain use where a 13m is about as big as you need for looping up sloped terrain. It has great power through the loop, but if you are spending more time on flat terrain and light winds, at your weight it might not be enough power. Although if you are looking at 10kts as yoru bottom wind range, it will definitely have you going in that (assuming snow isn't super deep).

Based on your current experience and the criteria you listed above, it does seem like the Pelican would be a very good fit - if you are looking for a kite in the 12-14m range.


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Sceotend
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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby Sceotend » Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:33 pm

Thanks Nate for confirming that the Pelican would be a good choice - and all the help. You have really nice videos and reviews! It's a shame that small companies struggle to get traction even with great products.

I think I need to get the kite from a local distributor. The task is somewhat easier if I'm trying to find a dedicated snow kite. E.g. I think that born-kite makes high performance single skin kites called Race Star, which is an interesting concept and my initial impression is that it could be a good fit for my skis.

I really don't know about the size but I think the Peak 4 8m2 is a bit too small for the lightest winds, I think a 13m2 foil could be a logical move up in size. Given my weight a true light wind kite should be even bigger but I guess there is an extra hassle with that. Correct if I'm wrong but I think the big kite should be a very high performance kite to be any fun to ride with in the lightest winds.

Sceotend
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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby Sceotend » Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:38 pm

drsurf wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:25 pm
If you're learning to hydrofoil, the best way to short circuit some of the learning process is to learn to foil behind a boat or jetski. That way you can focus on learning foiling skills and not worry about the kite.

The same applies to learning to foil on a SUP or prone surf foil. With a good boat/ski driver you can be pulled at just the right speed to learn the balance skills and control of a foil without the variables of the kite, wind and waves.

I would actually recommend learning on a dedicated SUP foil board of approx 120 litres so you can be kneeling on the board when you start and then it's easy to stand up and start to feel the foil. This will speed up the learning process of any foiling discipline.
This is an excellent idea. Silly me, I initially thought my kids could do that for fun. Even this will be probably first a lot of swimming and short visits on the board.

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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby Slappysan » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:24 pm

Sceotend wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:52 pm
I would like to start hydrofoiling in the summer - preferable with the same kite. I realized now that more experience with foil kites would be useful before buying one.
Just to be clear, you already have a foil kite, the Peak 4 8m, it's a single skin foil.

Also you should note that it's one of the best kites for hydrofoiling with, although 8m is a bit too big, the 3/4/5/6 are all best in class kites for hydrofoiling. Now would I learn to hydrofoil on a peak 4 even though they don't have the best water relaunch? Yes, if you have the experience with snow kiting to handle the kite, you'll rarely drop a peak 4 in the water and when you do it's often savable. I wouldn't bother with the bigger peak 4's for hydrofoil use though unless you want to be pushing the LW limits.

Would a Soul work? Of course, a Soul would be great, but you'd want either a 10m or 12m which is similar power to the peak 4 8m so it's not much bigger.

So my advice is buy a bigger kite for snow kiting if you want one but buy it only for snow kiting. Use your peak 4 8m to learn to hydrofoil, at your weight you'll want about 9-18 knots of wind for that kite. Don't take it in more than that though. I'm 170 lbs and hydrofoil my peak 4 5m in 8-15 knots, I can hold it down in more but it's not fun above 15.
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Sceotend
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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby Sceotend » Wed Feb 10, 2021 8:25 am

Slappysan wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:24 pm
Sceotend wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:52 pm
I would like to start hydrofoiling in the summer - preferable with the same kite. I realized now that more experience with foil kites would be useful before buying one.
Use your peak 4 8m to learn to hydrofoil, at your weight you'll want about 9-18 knots of wind for that kite. Don't take it in more than that though. I'm 170 lbs and hydrofoil my peak 4 5m in 8-15 knots, I can hold it down in more but it's not fun above 15.
Thank you for taking the other side and trusting my skills :) It's always good to have both sides covered. I will certainly try to use the Peak and it's definitely my end goal to be able to foil with drifty kites like Peaks. But I'm expecting to swim a lot first and with my current flying skill I most like will drop the kite more often than not. Even with a boat the process of collecting the kite from the water and untangling the lines after every failure doesn't sound my type of fun. So, I think I might need something more relaunchable first. I hope I'm wrong and I'm able to sell my tube "crutch" after the first session. I will buy it secondhand so it should be a cheap insurance.

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Re: A second kite for snow and water?

Postby Herman » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:26 am

As already said the peak is already a good hf kite. Reading between the lines it seems you need to maximise your TUK as I think you are in a very light wind area. In very light winds closed cell is not such an issue on land. In your position and with an eye on budget I would consider a Pansh Aurora 2 or 3 in 15m. I have recently purchased one of these but unfortunately I do not intend to fly it until the summer and so no idea if it was a good decision. Just another alternative to consider but as said not in a position to advise regarding the risk.

PS Imho the above is just to get you out in very light wind. Probably, you will actually progress your kite handling skills more by flying your 8m hard in slightly underpowered conditions. But a bigger kite will enable you to progress your riding skills in light wind. ( Shrinkage is generally more of a problem than stretch in bridles and flying lines in my experience. )
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