A second kite for snow and water?

[Sceotend]

I have been thinking about buying a progression kite while still practicing with my first depower kite - a Peak 4 8m2. I think it should be a quite big kite (12m2+?) given my weight 90 kg/200 lbs and local light wind. I would like to be able to ride at least from 10 knots. Optimally, the kite should work both on skis and on a hydrofoil.

The FS Soul was my favorite first but closed-cell foil is not ideal for snowkiting, self-landing is sometimes the only option. Also, the price of a Soul (No pun intended) is high. I have been told that a secondhand foil kite might not be ideal for a beginner due to potential bridle stretches. Furthermore, locally there aren't many on offer. After contemplating my options, I have read and watched quite a lot of reviews lately.

The Little Cloud Pelican seems like a very nice kite indeed (Nate's review: https://www.coloradokitesports.com/review-pelican2.html) and it should work well - due to adaptive air inlets - both on snow and on water. Yet, it only comes to sizes up to 13m2. Is this a problem though? I think - please correct me if I'm wrong - that progression might be easier with a tad smaller kite even if the trade-off is marginally less rideable days. Also, I think, on a hydrofoil the size is not that important as the smaller kite can move faster and can create more apparent wind. Does anyone know how the Pelican compares with for example FS Soul (was: Sonic, my bad), which I think has similar specifications?

The HQ4 Empulse should be quite similar to the Pelican with somewhat less lift, which might actually be a good thing for me. Also, I could catch one at a discounted rate (900 euros vs 1500 euros for a Pelican, both 13 m). Again, Nate's Empulse reviews (there are at least two,
and https://www.coloradokitesports.com/empulse_review.html) are superb. He mentioned in the review that the kite is great for progression, upwind and with minimal side pull. Also, it can be used both on snow and on water. But, it might be discontinued, which isn't a good sign. Is there any significant downsides with the Empulse, aside of less lift than Pelican?

What are the other options that I should consider? Any opinions or expert advice on this matter?

[nothing2seehere]

The Kitech FRS is well rated. If you go onto the Facebook page/group you'll see a lot of variation in use from landboarding/snow kiting and water use. There have been a couple of threads on here about them.

My impression is that they and concept air are the default kites to go for if you don't want the big brand kites (Ozone/Flysurfer). Sorry I can't help more.

[cor]

You are practicing with your first depower kite but you already on a hydrofoil? How is that even possible? What did you use before the peak? Or did you mean you first foil kite?

There are quite considerable differences between the mentioned kites. I know the Sonic and the Soul, but not the Pelican. You should first think about what you actually want to do besides just kiting in light wind. Do you want to Jump? carve? Everything a bit? Because this will dictate your kite choice a lot.

PS All of the mentioned kites can also be used for snowkiting. Self-landing only becomes a problem in very strong winds with closed cells.

[Sceotend]

You are practicing with your first depower kite but you already on a hydrofoil? How is that even possible? What did you use before the peak? Or did you mean you first foil kite?

There are quite considerable differences between the mentioned kites. I know the Sonic and the Soul, but not the Pelican. You should first think about what you actually want to do besides just kiting in light wind. Do you want to Jump? carve? Everything a bit? Because this will dictate your kite choice a lot.

PS All of the mentioned kites can also be used for snowkiting. Self-landing only becomes a problem in very strong winds with closed cells.

I should have been more specific. I have been snowkiting with the Peak. These will complement somewhat the objectives that weren't fulfilled by the Peak (thread here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2407402). So, I need another kite to snowkite in lighter winds. I would like to start hydrofoiling in the summer - preferable with the same kite. I realized now that more experience with foil kites would be useful before buying one. I don't have many easy options to gain more experience though.

The specifications of the Soul, Pelican, Empulse and Kitech FRS are quite close to each other (ar ~5). So, I'm trying to find out what are the practical differences between them. The Pelican and Empulse (maybe Kitech too) have adaptive valves, which I think, make them more suitable than e.g. the Soul for land/snow. So, I thought that maybe the both objectives (snow/water) could be accommodated with just one kite. I also thought about buying a secondhand LEI to specifically practice hydrofoiling but the wind is here very light and gusty in most days. The last time I saw a lot of LEIs on the ice while the foils just kept going. So, I probably would need to complement the LEI with another kite for light wind days. Also, I will have boat rescue option available at all times, which should help with a foil the times it won't relaunch.

So my preferences for a second (and first foil) kite in order of importance:

1. Light gusty wind kite for snowkiting (very important)
2. Good / excellent upwind
3. Easy to self-launch / self-land / fast setup
4. Easy to learn hydrofoiling / maybe kitesurfing / easy waterstart / relaunch
5. Progressing but at least somewhat beginner friendly
6. Stable
7. Durable
8. Affordable
9. Touring kite, pack small
10. Moderate lift to progress with safe baby jumps (less important)

nothing2seehere: that's good info Kitech seems like a very good option! I somehow totally missed that brand. I have to research that direction more.

[Foil]

hyperlink v2 comes standard as a dual use foil kite,
for land and snow use in open cell mode,
the hyperlink also has 5th line attachment points, (stowed inside the kite during closed cell mode)
the supplied 5th line folds the kite in two when released onto the 5th line, to allow it to descend to the ground without drama in strong winds,
of course the vent trumpets have to be configured so they are in open cell format, takes about 2 to 3 minutes,
all hyperlinks have this extra feature this as standard.

[Sceotend]

I have now tried to buy a Pelican and an Empulse - but both are out of stock locally. I have been told that even the Little Cloud company doesn't have big Pelicans in stock and there are no imminent plans to manufacture more of them.

That leaves big brand kites and Kitech FRS. The Hyperlink with re-ride seems very nice. The problem with big boys is the price, I have hard time justifying the cost of >2000 euros with my limited experience. According this comment (viewtopic.php?t=2398414) the Soul and Kitech FRS are quite similar. Yet, FRS, I think, doesn't have adaptive valves, which is important for safety reasons.

[cor]

If you are only about to start hydrofoiling, i recommend a kite that is as easy to use as possible, meaning a stable LEI that drifts well. I clearly recommend to NOT learn hydrofoiling in light winds but to learn in moderate winds where you could also use a TT. You will need to fully focus on the board and you won´t be able to look after your kite. Lighter winds require not only a lightwind kite, but - way way way more important - technique and experience.

If it has to be a non-inflatable, I recommend the Soul or the Hyperlink, but a good 12M LEI (any wavekite or lightwind specific kite) will get you quicker into hydrofoiling.

[Sceotend]

If you are only about to start hydrofoiling, i recommend a kite that is as easy to use as possible, meaning a stable LEI that drifts well. I clearly recommend to NOT learn hydrofoiling in light winds but to learn in moderate winds where you could also use a TT. You will need to fully focus on the board and you won´t be able to look after your kite. Lighter winds require not only a lightwind kite, but - way way way more important - technique and experience.

If it has to be a non-inflatable, I recommend the Soul or the Hyperlink, but a good 12M LEI (any wavekite or lightwind specific kite) will get you quicker into hydrofoiling.

I guess this is solid advice. I was already reconsidering my approach. It will mean less days to practice but probably a lot less of frustration. Maybe I should even get a TT first. Seems like a long road but often a short cut is not worthwhile. It will also mean that I could buy a dedicated snowkite. I prefer a foil for that because it will fly more often and I'm in the end interested in expeditions and travelling.

[cor]

If you haven´t yet practiced on a TT, you should reconsider trying to learn to hydrofoil. It´s a long road to HF and you are trying to use short cuts. It won´t work. This shortcut will take you much much longer to learn in the end, but it will also cause a lot of frustration or you will simply give up. Also, water and snow may bethe same elements, but they are very different when it comes to kiting. Snowkiting is a lot easier in general.

Instead, try to make the next step in your progression on water as fun as possible; That´s why I would recommend now to get a TT first and and an even bigger Lightwind Kite than suggested before, for example a Duotone Juice 15m or something similar. You could also consider a non-inflatable, but for first sessions in the water I wouldn´t recommend it.

[jumptheshark]

If it's any consolation, looking back on the very long road that has lead from first kite to foil, every step was a blast. TT, surfboard or even skim, every step in progression was not only fun, but contributed to the overall level of skill so that by the time I got my first foil and mounted it on an old board, it was not a super long process to get up and flying.

As a jaded kiter with about 18 years in it now, it still makes me smile to see the ear to ear grins on those in the early throes of the learning curve. Well that is until they bash a kite into someone and threaten our access, but that's not you man. I can tell.

Enjoy the journey. There is no way to really know where it will lead you. I certainly couldn't have fathomed the stuff I ride now even a few short years ago.

P.S. The fastest progression to foil I ever witnessed were the young crew of first foilers around here. They were racers through and through coming from the sailing scene where they had all spent time in 49ers and moths and had seen the future of kite racing starting to take shape. They bought any old LEI and TT and spent all of one season working out the basics before jumping into used race foil gear. There were many questionable moments of judgement and more than a few fiascos, but they had a buddy system in place and helped bail each other out. They went from zero to foiling inside two seasons. Racing by the third year and downright fast around a course by the end of the 4th. All relatively fit and dedicated in their 20's with some degree of family financial support.