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sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

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papasmerf
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sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby papasmerf » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:36 pm

my light wind kite is currently an 11m chrono v3 ul. works pretty darn good while on my 1150 front wing foil. i sometimes put on my 1650 front wing foil for a litte extra lift.

but i do have a sonic 2 18m which i was never all that impressed with to be honest. seemed pretty unstable when i tried it a few times in light wind when i was twin tipping 4 or 5 years ago. perhaps i didn't give it enough tries. hardly used it really but i am wondering if it will fly in really light wind. i've used foil kites for many years

has anyone had any experience using the 18m sonic in super light wind using a foil?

i am concerned that it might be too heavy of a kite to fly in variable 5-8 mph.

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Nem0 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:46 pm

How does your mixer trimm looks like?
I use B=-1 and C=-2 which gives it a stable and solid setup.

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby dave1986 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:51 pm

My gut feeling it that an 18m Sonic 2 would get a 75kg rider up on the foil in about 5 knots. Whereas the 11m Chrono will need about 6 knots.

BUT the key difference is that the Ultralight Chrono will easily fly in 5/6knots. However the 18m Sonic 2 with heavier fabric will be more unstable and at risk of falling in those winds. So maybe only use the Sonic 2 18m in very smooth winds.

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby papasmerf » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:14 pm

dave1986 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:51 pm
My gut feeling it that an 18m Sonic 2 would get a 75kg rider up on the foil in about 5 knots. Whereas the 11m Chrono will need about 6 knots.

BUT the key difference is that the Ultralight Chrono will easily fly in 5/6knots. However the 18m Sonic 2 with heavier fabric will be more unstable and at risk of falling in those winds. So maybe only use the Sonic 2 18m in very smooth winds.
I have my doubts if the sonic will fly in 5mph really

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:35 pm

It wont....
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papasmerf
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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby papasmerf » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:18 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:35 pm
It wont....
thanks peter. like i said, i've had it for a few years so thought maybe i could re purpose it for foiling.

my 11m chrono works amazing in lightwind... what are your thoughts on a 15m chrono for even lighter wind? what are your thoughts on the best lightwind kite for foiling. at some point there has to be dimishing returns

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:36 pm

Hi

I can not answer that one...

As IMO are the max sized ones not the ones you can ride in the lowest wind - but they are a lot faster up and downwind in lower wind.
Others would say they ARE the best :roll:

The Sonic2 18 m2 is not sufficiently light for ultra marginal wind IMO.

But some race kites has max peak power, which is essential for ultra marginal hydrofoiling.

If too low aspect, too fat, they can hang if they are ultralight material (max 27 g/m2), and they are a lot easier to handle, dont bowtie in odd situations, and turns faster.
BUT, you lose the peak power needed for getting up and going.

Race kites can have difficulties hanging in this low wind, so tricky, but IF you get up and going, they can be the holy grail.

Although, some race kites has a profile so they fly to the edge and lose the power, if you dont have speed or wind - and both are present for racing.

Not so for ultra marginal wind foiling.

Also, a 13 or 15 m2 turns okay for the average weight, not fast, but okay, whereas the 18 and 21 m2's does not.

Long lines is a must, 30 meters or something, and a big wing quite high aspect - otherwise it does not work at all.

Again, opposite to racing, where even bigger kites on shorter 14 m lines are typical.

For the "Fun" factor, 12-13 m2 for the average weights, are IMO and experience by far the most fun, and can go almost, or just as low as a 15 or 18 m2, but WAY more fun.

If you are over average weight (over 75-80 kg) you need a bigger size of course.

8) Peter
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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby dave1986 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:00 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:36 pm
Hi

I can not answer that one...

As IMO are the max sized ones not the ones you can ride in the lowest wind - but they are a lot faster up and downwind in lower wind.
Others would say they ARE the best :roll:

The Sonic2 18 m2 is not sufficiently light for ultra marginal wind IMO.

But some race kites has max peak power, which is essential for ultra marginal hydrofoiling.

If too low aspect, too fat, they can hang if they are ultralight material (max 27 g/m2), and they are a lot easier to handle, dont bowtie in odd situations, and turns faster.
BUT, you lose the peak power needed for getting up and going.

Race kites can have difficulties hanging in this low wind, so tricky, but IF you get up and going, they can be the holy grail.

Although, some race kites has a profile so they fly to the edge and lose the power, if you dont have speed or wind - and both are present for racing.

Not so for ultra marginal wind foiling.

Also, a 13 or 15 m2 turns okay for the average weight, not fast, but okay, whereas the 18 and 21 m2's does not.

Long lines is a must, 30 meters or something, and a big wing quite high aspect - otherwise it does not work at all.

Again, opposite to racing, where even bigger kites on shorter 14 m lines are typical.

For the "Fun" factor, 12-13 m2 for the average weights, are IMO and experience by far the most fun, and can go almost, or just as low as a 15 or 18 m2, but WAY more fun.

If you are over average weight (over 75-80 kg) you need a bigger size of course.

8) Peter
I think you are spot-on with this answer Peter.

In my opinion you could probably get ultimate low-end with a 21m Ultralight race foil kite... but you also would need a high skill level and perfect smooth wind to ensure you don't drop the kite... All this for probably only 1knot lower wind range compared with a 12-to15m freeride foil kite (such as Ozone Chrono/ Flysurfer Soul).

The 12-15m freeride foil kite would be more more fun, more forgiving and still get you riding in 6knots+

I also agree that a large high aspect hydrofoil (like Moses 1000) is helpful for low winds... but is only a marginal gain compared with a low-aspect hydrofoil (like Moses 633).

papasmerf
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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby papasmerf » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:24 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:36 pm
Hi

I can not answer that one...

As IMO are the max sized ones not the ones you can ride in the lowest wind - but they are a lot faster up and downwind in lower wind.
Others would say they ARE the best :roll:

The Sonic2 18 m2 is not sufficiently light for ultra marginal wind IMO.

But some race kites has max peak power, which is essential for ultra marginal hydrofoiling.

If too low aspect, too fat, they can hang if they are ultralight material (max 27 g/m2), and they are a lot easier to handle, dont bowtie in odd situations, and turns faster.
BUT, you lose the peak power needed for getting up and going.

Race kites can have difficulties hanging in this low wind, so tricky, but IF you get up and going, they can be the holy grail.

Although, some race kites has a profile so they fly to the edge and lose the power, if you dont have speed or wind - and both are present for racing.

Not so for ultra marginal wind foiling.

Also, a 13 or 15 m2 turns okay for the average weight, not fast, but okay, whereas the 18 and 21 m2's does not.

Long lines is a must, 30 meters or something, and a big wing quite high aspect - otherwise it does not work at all.

Again, opposite to racing, where even bigger kites on shorter 14 m lines are typical.

For the "Fun" factor, 12-13 m2 for the average weights, are IMO and experience by far the most fun, and can go almost, or just as low as a 15 or 18 m2, but WAY more fun.

If you are over average weight (over 75-80 kg) you need a bigger size of course.

8) Peter
why is the high aspect a benefit over the lower aspect front wings? i know they glide better but other than that i am not sure?

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby dave1986 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:43 am

papasmerf wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:24 pm
why is the high aspect a benefit over the lower aspect front wings? i know they glide better but other than that i am not sure?
High aspect kites and hydrofoil wings have better lift-to-drag ratio compared with lower aspect wings. So having a high aspect kite and a high aspect hydrofoil will minimise the drag (and increase lift) which is of course an advantage in marginal conditions. However the downside is that high aspect kites and hydrofoil wings are generally less forgiving and slower tuning speed compared with lower aspect.

So if you want to squeeze out every last marginal gain then this is the way to do it... but in reality other factors such as rider skill level will have a much more significant impact.


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