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sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby darippah » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:35 am

How would the Sonic 3 fair for ultra light wind?

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:21 am

For marginal wind there is also 2 important parameters to initiate the waterstart which are:
- Kite power during kite working or loop
- kite stability to sudden punctual loss of wind pr swimming away from shore.

For these points , lower AR kite are better. These 2 points are , in my experience of light weight rider, the limiting ones when looking for riding with minimum marginal wind in "real life" whatever the rider skills.

The lighter the rider is, the lower wind limit is, and therefore the more important those 2 points are

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby dave1986 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:13 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:21 am
For marginal wind there is also 2 important parameters to initiate the waterstart which are:
- Kite power during kite working or loop
- kite stability to sudden punctual loss of wind pr swimming away from shore.

For these points , lower AR kite are better. These 2 points are , in my experience of light weight rider, the limiting ones when looking for riding with minimum marginal wind in "real life" whatever the rider skills.

The lighter the rider is, the lower wind limit is, and therefore the more important those 2 points are
I agree with your 2nd point that lower aspect kites typically sit a little deeper in the window and are more stable. But regarding your 1st point, I think high aspect kites typically produce more peak power in a loop. Therefore an ultralight race kite will be better in very low winds (as long as the wind isn't too gusty).

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby tomtom » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:22 am

Sonic 2 18 will be too big in winds in which it will be able to fly on anything other than small race wing

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:55 am

dave1986 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 10:13 am
I think high aspect kites typically produce more peak power in a loop. Therefore an ultralight race kite will be better in very low winds (as long as the wind isn't too gusty).
This not what i experienced in very light wind when kites hardly fly, and even with not very high AR kites. For a similar surface i have more power looping with a low AR like Pulsion vs sonic 2 or joker 5.
Crossing the window in straight line is in favor of high AR kites , that is true if you shert out correctly, but not working 8 figures or looping it in a reasonnable radius like with 20-25m lines.

Personally, The lowest marginal wind limit i get is with a medium AR kite, even comparing with excellent competitors on 21 m race kites like FS vmg or ozone r1v2 or sonics 1 and 2.

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:04 pm

But if you compare to race kiters, they always use short lines, max 25 m even in marginal winds, so an unfair comparison.
And if you are not used to the very precise delicate trim of racekites, the highest aspect ones can be killed if you sheet just half an inch too much in, the power can not be used (not aiming at you, but if you dont race and use the same high end race kites over and over, it is impossible to get max gain).

Also, if you are really light (as you are Regis), I think things change a bit, and you ride in even lower winds, meaning the ability to control and loop effectively is more important - whereas for us heavier, being able to get up on the board is key, and then the "up on foil" powerspike, as the kites can hang fine in this tad higher wind now.

So the fact that racers never use long lines, and that I believe being light or medium or heavy weight, makes a big difference in which type of kite we find is best - might be one reason why there are so many viewpoints on what works top for ultra marginal wind.

Just my take on this.

8) Peter

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:58 pm

Fully agree, nice synthesis.
Franck, i think you are also a light man. What about your feeling for your own choice assuming long thin lines (say >25 m) and big hydrofoil like 1000 to 1200 cm2 ? Assuming thermic wind not too disturbed (because if disturbed , no debate a Lower AR is IMO better).

Personally from the kite i owned or tested in very light, i would put Pulsion 18 first , then pulsion 15, then PL Aero 17m, then sonic2 exaequo with my "new" Elf joker5 15m.
I Disliked the 10m soul in very light, too heavy. And liked a lot the flymaax toon (= gin spirit) 10m , in only 7 knot ! Light snd agile. Applicable for my 61kg and 1200cm2 hydrofoil.

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Nem0 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:32 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Personally from the kite i owned or tested in very light, i would put Pulsion 18 first , then pulsion 15, then PL Aero 17m, then sonic2 exaequo with my "new" Elf joker5 15m.
I learned first flies withmy Onda an 18m Pulsion!
You do not have to care about it in the air!

What about 11m or 13m Peak4?
It stays even longer in the air as Pulsion 18m.

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:36 pm

Nem0 wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 6:32 pm
Regis-de-giens wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2021 4:58 pm
Personally from the kite i owned or tested in very light, i would put Pulsion 18 first , then pulsion 15, then PL Aero 17m, then sonic2 exaequo with my "new" Elf joker5 15m.
I learned first flies withmy Onda an 18m Pulsion!
You do not have to care about it in the air!

What about 11m or 13m Peak4?
It stays even longer in the air as Pulsion 18m.

Doesn't work, no peak power, have tried both.
Not really going super low...

But yes, they don't drop, great :wink:

8) Peter

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Re: sonic 2 18m for light wind foiling

Postby joriws » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:01 am

Soul 10m is not build as light wind kite but as a high wind boosting kite with structural endurance. True that with foiling we misuse (many) kite's original design intention, Soul = TT boosting durable kite with easy step-in from LEI side.

I always talk here @KF about the force impulse to get riding, which is "force x time-the-force-applies", meaning a) can you get on top of your board from water b) can you accelerate your board to hydrofoil take-off speed and finally c) ride away to sunset. So in light wind which kite provides the required impulse (force x time of force applies) for you to ride. From Peter_Frank's statement "Doesn't work, no peak power, have tried both." my own educated option even gets stronger. I possible I'd go even for Flysurfers VMG11 kite to be more efficient like sail planes are.



Many double skin closed cell foil kites do work under 10kn, but there might be differences in way you get the mandatory impulse to get going. Sonic3 15m, easy dive of kite and you ride in ultra-light-winds. Peak4 you might need a lot of looping and very delicate bar position control to get out of water and accelerate board&foil to flying speed in similar situation, like Horst Sergio's video on youtube displays like 5 kite loops or so (from faint memory, don't count from the actual video :D ).

How do I know, well Regis, I am almost the double of your weight so my riding problem and required impulse levels to ride are double compared to yours (linear mass dependency). So we can directly calculate force difference on potential energy change to get out of water to top of board (my mass is almost 2x of yours and my center of mass is probably ten(s) of centimeters higher than yours for potential energy change), then kinetic energy change to accelerate to planing and hydrofoil flying. Also on other thread here we have talked with Peter closed-cell-foil kinetic energy vs Peak4 kinetic energy which is a sort of flywheel effect via inertia to create force impulse required to lift off from water to ride with foil. I interpret that Peter finally agrees me (ref. previous Peter's quote "Doesn't work...").

I wonder your drive to 18m kites (with lower aspect) if you are 60-70kg, when I with almost double of your weight and required force impulse to ride I can do my stuff with 15m foil kites (already a couple of generations ago model) in proven light wind **with door-twintip when "LW"-LEI kites cannot climb to zenith**. IMO you don't need 18m kite's impulse to do your HF stuff, actually smaller kite with less fabric weight & air-inside-mass-inertia and easier to achieve higher flying speed and quicker steering with easier-to-fly-arcs would be much better for you maybe with 23-25m lines to create window room kite to accelerate and generate the impulse. My opinion is that 18m is a waste of fabric for "60kg" person, it was already in pre-historic-dinosaur-twintip-era when our local 60kg-kiter with 19m Speed3DLX was saying it is too much force with twintip already for their weight in our famous light winds. I am 110kg and 18m kite is waste of fabric for me.

I'd prefer using more efficient high aspect airfoil with less inertia to go if I were you for light wind. In my case at your weight I'd probably have Sonic3-11m (recreational riding with std. 21m lines) as my max size kite. Now my many generations old Speed4 10lotus kite is most usual HF-kite I go and only when I cannot get impulse required for initial HF flying I swap to Sonic3 15m which still delivers. Peak4 5m is about the similar required wind speed for me to HF-ride compared to Speed4 10lotus on initial impulse level but never did direct 1:1 comparison swapping kites.


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