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help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby Flyboy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:08 pm

I think Dave1986 put it pretty succinctly. Bigger kites drop the useable wind range a little, but reduce the comfortable range a lot.

There is no way I would recommend learning to foil in 8 knots, whether with a LEI or a foil kite. You should start with a decent amount of wind, because you will fall a lot & you don't want to be constantly dropping the kite because the wind is so light. My advice: use your 9m LEI in the 13 - 16 knot range while you build up some basic competence. After that you will be in a position to evaluate what conditions you want to be able to ride in & what kite you need to accomplish that.
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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby elguapo » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:00 am

well.
i agree with flyboy.. learn to hydrofoil on your current LEI

otherwise, i see some spectacular crashes in your future...

learning how to fly a BIG foil kite while simultaneously learning how to hydrofoil will definitely increase the entertainment value for the peanut gallery at your local beach...
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1234567Simon (Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:59 am)
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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby Gestalt » Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:08 am

I recently learned how to hydrofoil and used LEI and foil kites.
For me the first 4-6 hours of learning was riding for about 4-10m and then faceplanting....a lot. Bigger kite here helps a lot for the first half a dozen hours, as you won't want to immediately start foiling. Just learning to balance on the board is a challenge. After about 6-8 hours you can start going down a kite size as you can start coming out of the water a bit at a time.
It took me about 15 hours total to get comfortable cruising out of the water.

Personally I find foil kites to have too much grunt for foiling on a bigger beginner wing like yours. Having a LEI wave kite you can depower fully but still keep lower in the wind window helps learn the balance mechanics better. Otherwise on a foilkite the pull of the kite can throw you off balance, so you have to fight it which makes learning the foil more difficult.

Learning to foil is more body memory learning than "technique" type skill learning. So you want to support that process as much as you can.
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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby Flyboy » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:36 am

Gestalt wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:08 am
I recently learned how to hydrofoil and used LEI and foil kites.
For me the first 4-6 hours of learning was riding for about 4-10m and then faceplanting....a lot. Bigger kite here helps a lot for the first half a dozen hours, as you won't want to immediately start foiling. Just learning to balance on the board is a challenge. After about 6-8 hours you can start going down a kite size as you can start coming out of the water a bit at a time.
It took me about 15 hours total to get comfortable cruising out of the water.

Personally I find foil kites to have too much grunt for foiling on a bigger beginner wing like yours. Having a LEI wave kite you can depower fully but still keep lower in the wind window helps learn the balance mechanics better. Otherwise on a foilkite the pull of the kite can throw you off balance, so you have to fight it which makes learning the foil more difficult.

Learning to foil is more body memory learning than "technique" type skill learning. So you want to support that process as much as you can.
I learnt to foil on a smaller wing. I suspect trying to learn on a 1200cm2 wing by keeping the board in control on the water surface with a larger kite will prove very challenging. Better to go out in a bit more wind & a 9m LEI. In all honesty, I found "surface riding" the board to be very frustrating & ultimately a waste of time ... in the end you have to commit to getting up on the foil.
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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby downunder » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:12 pm

It is not that bad to use a bigger kite. I have no issue on 633 and im 60kg. My 3rd sesh.

But, this means kite is in the water. A lot.

There is no need to use a foil kite if light LEi can be used.

I can now get on foil in an instant. The trick is to make a quick move with the board. People tend to ride the board. No need. This is why short boards are better, they force us not to ride it.

633, 91 mast, 120cm board, 9m kite = 12-15kn for me. Same with 10m Soul 24m lines or 13 Chrono on 15m lines.

Bigger kite pulls on the edge, but not when higher. 9m we can fly lower, on edge, so the pull is the same.
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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby deniska » Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:59 am

Archer77 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:01 pm
8 to 14 knots foiling and than up to 22 knots with twin tip maybe
15 soul is my go to kite for 8-22 kts covering both foil and TT
but i use freerace ~600cm2 wings for foiling..
I can hold it on the foil unlit ~18-20 kts (at 90kg) but the fun range is up to 15 kts
at 10-12 you start to get nice airs
past 18 it's TT airstyle time..
shot below is from 3 days ago.. ~12kts soul 15m
vlcsnap-2021-04-18-19h56m17s843.png
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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby matth » Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:27 am

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:08 pm
I think Dave1986 put it pretty succinctly. Bigger kites drop the useable wind range a little, but reduce the comfortable range a lot.

There is no way I would recommend learning to foil in 8 knots, whether with a LEI or a foil kite. You should start with a decent amount of wind, because you will fall a lot & you don't want to be constantly dropping the kite because the wind is so light. My advice: use your 9m LEI in the 13 - 16 knot range while you build up some basic competence. After that you will be in a position to evaluate what conditions you want to be able to ride in & what kite you need to accomplish that.
This is exactly where I am now. 9m Boxer, Cad Varial med(1250). I struggle till the wind hits around 13knt and then it's easy peasy. I'm sure I will eventually be able to get going in a little less wind with the 9m but I am still thinking of picking up a 12m Boxer for sub 12knt wind. Even though the wing is big and has lots of early lift you still need the horsepower to get up in light wind.
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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby migel1976 » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:04 am

deniska wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:59 am
Archer77 wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:01 pm
8 to 14 knots foiling and than up to 22 knots with twin tip maybe
15 soul is my go to kite for 8-22 kts covering both foil and TT
but i use freerace ~600cm2 wings for foiling..
I can hold it on the foil unlit ~18-20 kts (at 90kg) but the fun range is up to 15 kts
at 10-12 you start to get nice airs
past 18 it's TT airstyle time..
shot below is from 3 days ago.. ~12kts soul 15m
vlcsnap-2021-04-18-19h56m17s843.png
RDB freerace?

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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby Foil » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:44 am

Buying your first foil kites for hydrofoiling is a exciting reach out into the unknown for many hydrofoilers, for many its a sheer joy, power that is just so controllable, power delivery that's so smooth, lift and glide around the corners with less tendency for slack line situations, easier body dragging out in difficult onshore winds with waves, less gear, and much lighter gear to carry down to waters edge, massive wind range of foil kites compared to LEI kites, one foil kite covers at least 2 lei kite sizes,and the much publicised grunt and lift that Foil kites can deliver in the initial get up and go.
sounds great,
but it's not for everyone, and sailing locations that you use must be considered,
as a guide then if you are still falling in a lot during a session, still feeling unsteady in the chop and tripping up more than the other foilers, if you keep dropping your kite in the turns, rarely if ever getting near a dry 30 mins on the water, if any of this applies to you then you may need to think carefully before changing to foil kites, learning two skills at the same time can be achieved, but its going to be harder, and you need to keep yourself aware of the risks that come with a foil kite and take all the steps to minimise that risk.
If you are in the early hydro foiling learning stages then you will drop your foil kite for sure, and drop it more often than others you may watch who never seem to drop thiers, ok, so with this in mind then think about your sailing spot, are there many buddies around to help out? with advice and be there when things go wrong, can you practice more often on a safe lagoon type area, shallow water area, easy launch and land location, the list goes on, can you practice foil kite pack down and relaunch skill/ability? you will need this skill in the bank for sure before going out in anything less than super safe and ideal.
Then there is the choice of foil kite,
don't just dive in and buy cheap,
be very careful who you listen to, yes foil kites relaunch much much easier than lei kites,but only in the hands of someone who has practiced a lot and is aware of all the downsides not just the advantages, but even for the experienced then if its a blown out bag from 5 to 15 years back, thats been well used, slower than slow thing, and is now porus, heavy by todays superlight standards, and out of tune with cotton thin bridals that will never deliver a good experience to a novice.but it may be going cheap!

Generally foil kites classed as freeride,are the ones to look at new or the latest versions, not budget price, recommended by the hydrofoilers you can actually watch and talk to to at your sailing spot, go for the lightest weight for size, strongest bridal set that "never" need adjustment ,they are available but limit your choices

I have found that guys newer to foil kite use on a hydrofoil may need to go up a size in the first year of use, and then as skill develops in the use of the foil kite you can drop a size for the same conditions that a year back seemed impossible, which then makes foil kite use an even better experience.
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Re: help needed on foil kite size for hydrofoil

Postby Archer77 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:21 am

Flyboy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:36 am
Gestalt wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:08 am
I recently learned how to hydrofoil and used LEI and foil kites.
For me the first 4-6 hours of learning was riding for about 4-10m and then faceplanting....a lot. Bigger kite here helps a lot for the first half a dozen hours, as you won't want to immediately start foiling. Just learning to balance on the board is a challenge. After about 6-8 hours you can start going down a kite size as you can start coming out of the water a bit at a time.
It took me about 15 hours total to get comfortable cruising out of the water.

Personally I find foil kites to have too much grunt for foiling on a bigger beginner wing like yours. Having a LEI wave kite you can depower fully but still keep lower in the wind window helps learn the balance mechanics better. Otherwise on a foilkite the pull of the kite can throw you off balance, so you have to fight it which makes learning the foil more difficult.

Learning to foil is more body memory learning than "technique" type skill learning. So you want to support that process as much as you can.
I learnt to foil on a smaller wing. I suspect trying to learn on a 1200cm2 wing by keeping the board in control on the water surface with a larger kite will prove very challenging. Better to go out in a bit more wind & a 9m LEI. In all honesty, I found "surface riding" the board to be very frustrating & ultimately a waste of time ... in the end you have to commit to getting up on the foil.
Thank you Flyboy and Gestalt for the confirmation and specifications!

I clearly understand now that I have to start HF with LEI's

To be clear, how much time should I reserve for Surface Riding before trying to fly on the HF wing?


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