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foil kite for 8-12 knots again

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tomtom
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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby tomtom » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:02 am

SolarSet wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:30 am
Friend of mine claim that as long as he can keep kite in air he can ride foil. From my own short experience it is a BS.
8-12kts for a 92kg ride and Onda I need 10 or 12m LEI like Core Xlite? I did ride in 13-16kts mine XR6 8m and zeeko blater, hence I thought 10m LEI light weight will be enough for Onda in 8-12kts?
Me 85 kg - 88cm/38 tiny board 82 cm mast. onda 633 or 790 wing with 450 stabi.

Before my low end was on 9m kitech FRS kite/633/ "kite can stay on zenith without falling back" this is more precise measure than any wind meter.
Now on 790 wing and with tiny board i can go and ride in "i must reasonable actively fly kite while entering water - so less than -kite can stay on zenith without falling back-"
Tiny board make no difference on 790 - since if i cannot start i also cannot ride. Starting on tiny boards require different approach though. I start in deep downwind direction - so not possible in onshore condition and you need A LOT of space downwind. Also no matter what everybody says kiteloops are not most efficient way to use kite power. Big 8s in whole WW are. Same apply for marginal gibing.
I was more humble about this before - but consistently in many years no matter the spot and world place - im able to be first on water and with smallest gear. On pair or better with wordcup racer on 20m R1.

What im trying to say.

790 is much better than 633 for LW. More than kite size difference. You dont need more than 10m LEI /you must be able to keep it in air/ for marginal no matter the wind. Equivalent are 8-9 m closed cell or 6m Peak /which is just tad worse/. Onshore can limit lowend. For onshore you need more kite power. Skills are required
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SolarSet (Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:10 pm)
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nothing2seehere
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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:10 am

SolarSet wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:30 am
Friend of mine claim that as long as he can keep kite in air he can ride foil. From my own short experience it is a BS.
8-12kts for a 92kg ride and Onda I need 10 or 12m LEI like Core Xlite? I did ride in 13-16kts mine XR6 8m and zeeko blater, hence I thought 10m LEI light weight will be enough for Onda in 8-12kts?
I understand his point there. I can generally get going if my 9m ultra will sit happily at 12 without needing to be moved. But this is much more than 8 knots - probably closer to 11knots

I have also been riding in conditions where I needed to keep my 10m soul moving to keep it from stalling/crashing. I reckon this is probably about 8 knots and I was relieved when the wind picked up a bit as it wasn't a particularly enjoyable time.

I think the difference here is how you interpret the original question. Yes, I have seen people out in 8 knots riding 12m Ultras - but only because the wind dropped from the 12-14 knots it was when he went out and it wasn't forecast to drop. He wouldn't have even bothered pumping if the forecast was for 8 knots of breeze. For a forecast of 8knots you have to expect the lulls down to 4 knots and so you're going to need something MUCH bigger than a 10m and as light as possible. The Kauper Maverick foil looks a promising design, as does the Kitech FRS. Both are lighter with less pull through the turns than the Soul but equally they won't perform on a twin tip the same. I think the most useful thing in low wind to have though, is a safety boat to pick you up and stop you needing to swim back in again :D
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SolarSet (Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:09 pm)
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rnelias
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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby rnelias » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:51 am

SolarSet wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:30 am
Friend of mine claim that as long as he can keep kite in air he can ride foil. From my own short experience it is a BS.
8-12kts for a 92kg ride and Onda I need 10 or 12m LEI like Core Xlite? I did ride in 13-16kts mine XR6 8m and zeeko blater, hence I thought 10m LEI light weight will be enough for Onda in 8-12kts?
You may guess from the water surface how was the wind this day :D



This guy weights 75kg and was on a fat wingfoil's wing and the kite was an Airush wave 12m. Yep, a 3-struct LEI

Here's me on a 1250cm^2 wing that I don't use anymore and Reo 8m. This day the wind was marginally on 10k out of the beach. We usually have 2k less close to the beach.



The Alpha 8m gave me a little bit more low end that I've compensated by changing the wing to 1000cm^2.

Now I'd like to start using my F-One's 850 and 650 wings to justify the need of a 12m Soul :D
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SolarSet (Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:09 pm)
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SolarSet
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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby SolarSet » Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:12 pm

I will probably stick with W633 as it is cheapest full carbon setup from Moses where we live in Poland.
I'm very intrigue with wingfoiling but this W790 would be way too small for my 92kg to use for wingfoil. I'm leaning to get W633 and LW LEI 10m. Will keep Soul 15m till I get more proficient foiling on LEI.

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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby rnelias » Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:06 pm

SolarSet wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:12 pm
I will probably stick with W633 as it is cheapest full carbon setup from Moses where we live in Poland.
I'm very intrigue with wingfoiling but this W790 would be way too small for my 92kg to use for wingfoil. I'm leaning to get W633 and LW LEI 10m. Will keep Soul 15m till I get more proficient foiling on LEI.
I could say that the LEI kites (Reo and Alpha) helped me a lot when learning gybes as they're much faster and maneuverable than the Soul on 12m. Alpha is amazing. Never stall and drifts very well. Think a kite that is even hard to land as it tends to fly on any breeze. The 8m weights just 2kg. Just to leave a rough reference, the Soul 12m weights 2.16kg. Ok, I'm comparing bananas to apples but, at least on my experience here, the Alpha is attending me much better than the Soul. I'm assuming the Soul will be better to learn foot switch and tacks or to freeride on smaller wings (650 or 850).

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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby leeuwen » Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:57 pm

rnelias wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 2:06 pm
I'm assuming the Soul will be better to learn foot switch and tacks or to freeride on smaller wings (650 or 850).
Can confirm that tacks are about 500% easier on a foil kite.
So much easy accessible lift over a long period of time feels like cheating.
Regular foot switches are also a bit easier but not as gigantic difference as tacks in my experience.
My experience with Gybes is also similar: although perfectly doable with a foilkite it takes a bit more finesse. My (aluula) 10m tube is more fun since I can just throw and loop it all over the place.

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Peter_Frank
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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:14 pm

Ha haa, the old saying "If you can keep the kite in the air you can ride".

Is utter and utter bull, in the old days with heavier kites, yes it was a fact.

But today, even with the biggest foilwing, you dont stand a chance if too little wind to either waterstart - OR keep the board from being below the surface, as kites are sooooo much lighter.

Thus kite size matters, and also peak power of course - and other parameters like line lenght and sometimes board size.

With a small board you can get up standing because it sinks deep, but it does not help regarding getting it up on the surface if wind is too low.
If kite is too small, the peak power spikes are dominant, but still too little power to foil.

Also, some kites are too dull to give any peak for starting - and here size doesnt help much anymore, on the contrary, they lose peak power sometimes.

Its a very delicate balance between many things when wind is below 8 knots.

8) Peter
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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby dave1986 » Mon Aug 23, 2021 11:09 pm

In summary... to kite in the very very lowest winds you need an ultralight high performance (high aspect) twinskin foil kite. Depending on rider weight 12m + size is needed and longer lines 25m+ help too.

If you like riding at the fastest speed in Ultralight winds and/or on a smaller hydrofoil then choose a 15m or 18m+ size... But be warned that a 11m to 13m kite will get all but the very heaviest riders foiling in equally low winds (just with a little less speed and less impressive upwind /downwind angles).

If you enjoy a fast turning kite then maybe a twin skin foil kite isn't for you as they're slow turning... You only need 2 or 3 more knots of wind and other faster turning kites such as single strut LEI or Flysurfer Peak 4 will be fine.
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tomtom
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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby tomtom » Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:27 am

foil kite for 8-12 knots again is name of thread

there is a lot of kites which can do it

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Re: foil kite for 8-12 knots again

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:03 pm

tomtom wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:27 am
foil kite for 8-12 knots again is name of thread

there is a lot of kites which can do it

True - we were getting away from the question which are fun/fast down to 8 knots.

I can @78 kg ride with a not very light onestrut 10 m2 LEI kite in 8 knots.

But need a 12 in 7 knots.

So yes, lots of kites can fly in this, but which are lively and fun?

As tomi3000 only wants foil kites, it is more difficult, as it sounds like it has to be the smallest possible size not too high AR (for good turning), so maybe 8-10 m2 twin skin UL foil kites?

But which???

A good question many would be interested in, true.

8) Peter


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