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Single vs Double Skin

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jakemoore
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Re: Single vs Double Skin

Postby jakemoore » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:50 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:40 pm
Okay, so you say that it is not the turning which is de-tuned on small kites, but they have added drag so it wont have such a crazy powerspike?

I love this powerspike, it can make wonders we have never dreamed of, till now where it is foil all over.

But it might be too much for us riders to handle, in the extremes?

One example was our experience on the ice, somewhat the same maybe, and not even a small racekite :wink:

8) Peter
I think different manufactures have different approaches so I would not generalize in that way except to say you can’t buy a 6m Sonic3. Slower turning may also be a benefit in strong winds and especially more powerful TT riding.

I love the power spike too. I thought 5m and 7m hyperlinks were pretty special kites. But alas I thrashed my 5 and more than one 7. A Peak is never going to blow a cell and that is better for the wallet and for the manufacturer and retailer as well.

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Re: Single vs Double Skin

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:03 pm

:advise:
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Re: Single vs Double Skin

Postby Jyoder » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:40 pm

I’m tempted to try to foil with a Rev Power Blast 2-4 or similar, rigged on a bar. I wonder how that would compare to a Peak 3m or 4m.

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Re: Single vs Double Skin

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jan 18, 2022 12:06 am

jakemoore wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:00 pm
It seems to me that Regis-de-giens is the light winds video champion and he is just not putting out many recommendations for single skin kites in very light winds.

There is no question the single skin kites are nice to fly, nice to travel, nice to setup and pack down, nice to crash and repair, nice to teach and especially nice to ride downwind and forget.
I fully agree with your last statement.

I had a 5m Peak4 and ride it incredibly low wind for a 5m, around 7 knots. But When i had not enough power to waterstart, i could still have riden with a very light double skin above 9-10m2. Peak 5m is definitely not the ultimate low wind machine :-). Ah ah ...

So, what about bigger Peak4 like the 13m...for marginal wind...

Just my opinion since i had no chance to make a serious back to back test, but I do not believe it. Indeed like for any single skin of Peak or hysper2 comparable design, as they exist today, I do not think that you can ride as low as a very light double skin like pulsion or Falcon (if existing in 18m). The weight of a Peak is even not lower in the end, while the power of a wide loop (or a straight diving) is lower, as several Peak 13m users have reported. Moreover in extreme light wind you need both power of a very big surface and decent glide of the kite to stay upwind (And long thin lines to waterstart and compensate for poor agility)

Existing SS are limited to 13m (Peak4) and 14m (Hysper2), and you need more surface from my experience having used 12m then 15m then 18m pulsion kite.

In my case (light rider and 1200cm2 foil), my current limit is reached in the 4 necessary steps at the same wind value (which is very interesting, but highlights clearly my current limits):

1- kite hardly fly in the air, need to be moved a bit

2- Peak power of the waterstart hardly lift my back out from water using several loops

3- when on the board, foiling UP needs hard pumping...

4- when foiling above water , upwind angle is limit...

0.5 knots less and none of above 4 points are possible (while all are necessary).

To gain lower end i need to improve all of them , which compromise is not feasible with current double skins IMO ...

Single skin could still have some hope in my quest of lighter winds, but for a "dedicated New Style" and material...

I ordered a Hysper2 2 month ago, in 14m, to reach this ridiculous goal of saving one precious knot , but at below special extremist conditions for those same 4 points:

1- I am expecting a Weight around 1400 gr for 14m2, with a special order of 27gr cloth (same as paraglider Ozone XXLite, and skycountry excluded any fragility responsability :o ) (Hence Peak4 is excluded because heavier and smaller surface).

2- using a floating wing board to escape from waterstart power lift need (climb on the board like one a wing, float even without kite pull, and just use kite pull to generate speed with this high volume board to limit board drag if underwater.

3- use a 1750 cm2 foil to fly UP at very low speed.

4- being able to foil even at very low speed during the ride to limit the impact of relative wind on my upwind angle (= keep the wind window forward despite the poor performance of the single skin)

So for "normal" kitefoiling in marginal wind , I do not think that existing Single skins leads neither to lower end nor real fun. However for above "marginal sup-foil kiting ", it could have its chance and success, but ....
... is it still kitesurfing , is it fun ? Most will say no and i can't argue :nono: :argue: :naughty: :remybussi:

... But ... I want to try :-)
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Re: Single vs Double Skin

Postby bohme » Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:32 pm

PugetSoundKiter wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:03 pm
:advise:
The lines are parallel to the total force (blue arrows) ??
Lift is probably around 10 times drag.

Anyway, single skin design sweet spot is at a higher 'angle of attack' than double skin.

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Re: Single vs Double Skin

Postby geron » Tue Jan 18, 2022 7:51 pm

Regis, that 14m Hysper ultralight will stay in the air in no wind and it will be the most stable in those wind speeds, so: you will be able to loop it and such very easily. 14m is a lot of area for the Hysper so I don't think you will need more area. For upwind, you will need a large (but efficient) foil wing. I have the w799 (800mm span and 1,100 cm2 area and it is very good upwind in light air) (much better than the W790 thicker wing with 1550cm2 and 790mm span) . I don't think you need a large and floaty board, a tiny sinker board might be best?... with straps? fun experiment.

I think... jaja

...I now want one of those 14m ul
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Re: Single vs Double Skin

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Thu Jan 20, 2022 4:38 am

bohme wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:32 pm
The lines are parallel to the total force (blue arrows) ??
Lift is probably around 10 times drag.
Anyway, single skin design sweet spot is at a higher 'angle of attack' than double skin.
Illustration is 2D and not exact but just used to show that SS have different direction/vector angle of pull and should therefore handle differently. The rider would feel the blue total kite force vector + the line drag vectors. Also correct, vector values are not to scale but enough to relay the idea.

SS vs DS has some similar comparisons to Sail vs Wing.
These graphs kind of give the idea of the differences for sailing:
AOA-Lift.jpg
AOA-Lift.jpg (21.89 KiB) Viewed 2387 times
AOA-Drag.jpg
AOA-Drag.jpg (20.09 KiB) Viewed 2387 times
Source: https://www.omerwingsail.com/wing-vs-sail

A lot of wing information is airplane based but kites are more in the sailing speed range and there is a lot of information on sailing. The low AR of the SS for stability also impacts the lift and handling.
Here is another illustration (for a sail) that gives an idea how AR affects lift/handling.
AspectRatio.jpg
AspectRatio.jpg (49.04 KiB) Viewed 2387 times
Source: https://www.seabreeze.com.au/Photos/Vie ... -of-sails/
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