Single vs Double Skin

[Glice227]

Thanks for the responses. There are also SS paragliders that are significantly smaller than their double skin counterparts that are rated for the same weight and similar trim speed. Does the lower skin have a large influence?

[Herman]

Am I correct in assuming being rated at for the same weight and trim speed does not indicate that they would have the same glide slope? Not up on my paraglide definitions!

[drsurf]

Remember any kite apart from a single skin holds some air and carries it with the kite increasing weight on top of the additional skin. The single skin kite moves through the air without carrying it which can cause drag but the responsiveness due to the overall light weight can't be beaten.

I went to our local beach yesterday and I could only register a maximum of 7 knots anywhere on the beach or dunes. Other kiters turned up and waited for more wind but gave up. I decided to get out my large kite, 5m Peak4, which I had not used this season. One swoop through the window and I was up on my foil and was powered up enough for a good session on my own

If you have a surf foil and haven't tried a single skin Peak4/5 kite and you are wondering why they are so often mentioned, get one or borrow one to try. All the talk on a forum is nothing compared to the real world experience on these kites. They feel so sweet to fly that anything else, (that I've tried), feels heavy, sluggish and unresponsive.

[Flyboy]

I think it's not a question of raw power ... but "usable power". The Peak is ideal for providing the power delivery that is useful for foiling - at least "carving foiling". It's most noticeable with the smaller Peaks. I find the 4m to be a "magic kite", useable for me in as little as 14 knots - that's when people may be out on TTs with 14 or 15m kites, which makes a bit of an odd contrast.

One thing I notice is that where power comes with a heavier tube kite more on the downstroke, with the much lighter Peaks the useful power comes with the upstroke - it's the upstroke that I use to pull myself up on the board in light conditions, where a tube kite is likely to simply stall.

[Peter_Frank]

Interesting skate story. I think if you were designing a kite for clean ice racing you might need to go for adjustable camber to cope with the enormous apparent wind that can be generated. Ice rigs have or used to have very flexible masts so that they could be bent to remove camber from the sail as speed increased. Trouble is I guess you would need a vast expanse of ice to have enough room to make a race skate kite fun, and the speeds would be crazy dangerous.


PS. Fixed bridle kites tend to feel more “powerful” than the equivalent depower foil for some of the same reasons imho.

Correct, it was extremely low wind, and not clean "black ice" - thus speed was limited.
Here the grunt and "power on demand" when flown, and ease of control of the Peak was a huge advantage.
Probably very different in more wind and/or black ice, where a racekite should work.

For iceboats, the sail is usually extremely flat, as they can gain speeds 6 times faster than the wind, and at these high speeds the angle to the craft is only 7½ degree, so really low cambered flat sails is key here.

Peter

[edt]

The double skin should be more efficient given the same wind speed. Just think about it you have control over not only the top of the wing but also the bottom. The advantage the peak has is that it is lighter so it can move faster and generate more apparent wind when looping. Of course the formulas don't matter that much as real life experience will tell you what generates more power. Explaining why though, that's harder.

[jakemoore]

I went to our local beach yesterday and I could only register a maximum of 7 knots anywhere on the beach or dunes. Other kiters turned up and waited for more wind but gave up. I decided to get out my large kite, 5m Peak4, which I had not used this season. One swoop through the window and I was up on my foil and was powered up enough for a good session on my own

I'd like to see a video of that! It seems to me that Regis-de-giens is the light winds video champion and he is just not putting out many recommendations for single skin kites in very light winds.

I think Herman and Regis-de-giens are on the right track regarding the difference. I think people may be comparing the top end pull of double skin and single skin kites and then feel like the single skin pulls harder because it does not depower so well. My own opinion having flown Peak4 and Gin Marabou many times is I could get on foil in similar light winds with a 6m Boxer or 6m Soul as a 6m Peak or other single skin. I used to have a 2 kite quiver for twin tip: Flysurfer Speed 17 and Flysurfer Speed 7. There is no way that could happen unless the Speeds had fantastic top end and fantastic low end and they did. Double skin foil kites and tube kites have far more wind range now than then. Finally, many of the smaller foil kites are de-tuned to avoid injuring the rider. Consider Ozone Frenzy, and Access, Concept Air Smart and Wave as gutless kites that are made in the same sizes as Peaks. Ozone makes small Hyperlinks but not Chronos. Flysurfer makes small Souls but not Sonics. The small Souls have a lower cell count and aspect. 5m HL and 6m Soul are awesome to fly in the intermediate winds where peaks are popular.

There is no question the single skin kites are nice to fly, nice to travel, nice to setup and pack down, nice to crash and repair, nice to teach and especially nice to ride downwind and forget.

[Peter_Frank]

"Finally, many of the smaller foil kites are de-tuned to avoid injuring the rider."

What do you mean with this?

De-tuned in which respect(s)?

Peter

[jakemoore]

"Finally, many of the smaller foil kites are de-tuned to avoid injuring the rider."

What do you mean with this?

De-tuned in which respect(s)?

Peter

Compare Soul 6 to Soul 10. Compare small and large Concept Air Waves. Compare Chrono (11m+ Only) to Hyperlink down to 5m. Manufacturers are making small kites in accessible models.

Peak 4 11 is like a 60 hp diesel tractor in the sky. Scale the Peaks down and you can find a wind range where they perform. Is there any plausible reason a high performance double skin kite would not benefit from smaller size and more wind? If the kite were the same just smaller in size the power spike would be hazardous and the better depower would make the kite feel gutless.

[Peter_Frank]

Okay, so you say that it is not the turning which is de-tuned on small kites, but they have added drag so it wont have such a crazy powerspike?

I love this powerspike, it can make wonders we have never dreamed of, till now where it is foil all over.

But it might be too much for us riders to handle, in the extremes?

One example was our experience on the ice, somewhat the same maybe, and not even a small racekite

Peter