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Flysurfer Peak Size

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Jyoder
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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Jyoder » Wed Aug 24, 2022 10:02 pm

Oldman_Dave wrote:
Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:39 pm
nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:42 am
For those who push the low end of the Peak, any tips for better upwind. Its the only kite I've ridden where in low wind I can't keep upwind even though I can up onto the foil (e.g. was probably 15-18knots on the 4m Peak and 1100 front wing). I can't remember really having this problem with other kites. Its normally a case that where I can get onto the foil I can ride back upwind. Maybe its a skill thing and I'm used to having power in the harness but definitely felt like I couldn't get any apparent wind.
For me this was a significant issue, even after 18 months of flying only peaks. Too many days on the 6m where I can ride but I don't want a huge slow wing, so I'm out on a faster smaller wing, with surf or tide to deal with, and yes I can go upwind but it's a constant struggle to get myself to the same place as mates who are more powered on Souls or LEIs and trucking upwind effortlessly. I was often finding I don't want to use the excellent drift of the kite to catch a wave because it's taken me so long to get upwind to the wave zone that I don't want to cash in unless the wave is perfect. So in the end I'm catching less waves and having less fun than I would on a kite which doesn't drift as well. From the sound of it, this problem has been fixed somewhat with the P5, which I don't have.
I prefer my 6m soul and faster foil for this reason. Can blast upwind in minutes and never have to struggle to maintain. Can’t ride the waves as well but I have a better time per minute overall.

br44
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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby br44 » Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:19 am

nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:42 am
For those who push the low end of the Peak, any tips for better upwind. Its the only kite I've ridden where in low wind I can't keep upwind even though I can up onto the foil (e.g. was probably 15-18knots on the 4m Peak and 1100 front wing). I can't remember really having this problem with other kites. Its normally a case that where I can get onto the foil I can ride back upwind. Maybe its a skill thing and I'm used to having power in the harness but definitely felt like I couldn't get any apparent wind.
Yes: try another foil. Sounds like you’re on a surf wing. A Higher Aspect wing, maybe bigger maybe not (surface is just one factor), should allow you to go upwind easily even in lower winds. Another factor is speed. Paradoxically, a smaller and faster foil ridden at a lower Angle of Attack may allow you to go upwind better than a larger slower foil that is closer to stalling.

Recently I tried 1050 Surf, 1450 HA, and 850 MA. The 2nd wing (and surprisingly the 3rd as well) performed better than the 1st wing in low winds.
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Peter_Frank
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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Aug 25, 2022 10:38 am

br44 wrote:
Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:19 am
nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:42 am
For those who push the low end of the Peak, any tips for better upwind. Its the only kite I've ridden where in low wind I can't keep upwind even though I can up onto the foil (e.g. was probably 15-18knots on the 4m Peak and 1100 front wing). I can't remember really having this problem with other kites. Its normally a case that where I can get onto the foil I can ride back upwind. Maybe its a skill thing and I'm used to having power in the harness but definitely felt like I couldn't get any apparent wind.
Yes: try another foil. Sounds like you’re on a surf wing. A Higher Aspect wing, maybe bigger maybe not (surface is just one factor), should allow you to go upwind easily even in lower winds. Another factor is speed. Paradoxically, a smaller and faster foil ridden at a lower Angle of Attack may allow you to go upwind better than a larger slower foil that is closer to stalling.

Recently I tried 1050 Surf, 1450 HA, and 850 MA. The 2nd wing (and surprisingly the 3rd as well) performed better than the 1st wing in low winds.

I do understand this indeed.

I have a 1200 cm2 wavefoil AR 3.6 only, couldnt be worse upwind and couldnt be more fun - but have never had any problems when using 5 or 6 m2 Peaks, even if I "sink" start (so low wind, the board is almost to your waist, and you have to wait for a small puff and loop/fly the board to the surface and struggle to get going), I can go upwind.

If the 4 is relatively new, I think it is simply a matter of time, as you are not sheeting it "perfect".
Takes a lot of time to learn (intuition and time) as it is so sheeting sensitive.

But you are right, with the 4 you CAN generate a huge amount of peak power because of its massive lovely acceleration, so indeed it IS possible to juuuust get up foiling, and working the kite when up, and not really go upwind.
It is great as then you can get ashore foiling even when too low wind for the 4 :thumb:

I think it is a combination of you not having used it sufficiently for perfect sheeting yet, and a fact that it can start in less wind than you can go upwind when on or below it lower limit :D

Take a bigger size Peak is my advice, or you can use a higher AR foilwing, but they turn a lot worse so not my cup of tea.

8) Peter

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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Flyboy » Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:26 am

Don't really understand the difficulty in going upwind with Peaks. It's true that they're not the best kites for driving upwind hard, but they still go upwind pretty well. Getting back upwind after a downwind run on waves isn't something I even think about.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:54 am

Agree Flyboy, but have you ridden a 3 or 4 m2 at their very low end where you have to work the kites?
At this very point you don't fly upwind as fast as if more powered or with bigger kites in my experience.

But I find this wind somewhat below their sweetspot.

It is crazy how low you can go with the small ones though :rollgrin:

8) Peter

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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Oldman_Dave » Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:46 am

Flyboy wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:26 am
Don't really understand the difficulty in going upwind with Peaks. It's true that they're not the best kites for driving upwind hard, but they still go upwind pretty well. Getting back upwind after a downwind run on waves isn't something I even think about.
There would be quite a few factors at play:
your weight
kite size vs wind size
foil size / characteristics
how you ride / skill / style
environment - tide, wave action etc

Yes they go upwind fine when well powered, & without too much tide/wave action fighting you, but if you bring all those factors above into play, they can struggle. I would often ride the 6m in the lower end of it's range, warm wind 8 - 12kts @ 100kgs, with waves and/or tide pushing downwind, and I don't switch feet and can't quite get the same angle upwind toeside (my lack of skill..) as heelside.

A fellow rider of 20kgs less on a Soul 8m say on the same day is out of sight upwind in 2 tacks, where I'm making ground but it's slow progress. It's partly the P4 sitting deep in the window, and partly being "underpowered" although it's actually a good amount of power for everything but upwind.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Flyboy » Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:28 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:54 am
Agree Flyboy, but have you ridden a 3 or 4 m2 at their very low end where you have to work the kites?
At this very point you don't fly upwind as fast as if more powered or with bigger kites in my experience.

But I find this wind somewhat below their sweetspot.

It is crazy how low you can go with the small ones though :rollgrin:

8) Peter
Yes - I rode the 4m quite a lot at the low end of its power when I just had the 6m and the 4m. I would often choose the 4m in marginal conditions for it rather than ride powered up on the 6m. I would say that the most challenging thing would be to water start, but once up in the foil, not too hard to ride upwind. I just got the 3m - excited to check it out!

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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Flyboy » Fri Aug 26, 2022 9:37 pm

Oldman_Dave wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 8:46 am
There would be quite a few factors at play:
your weight
kite size vs wind size
foil size / characteristics
how you ride / skill / style
environment - tide, wave action etc

Yes they go upwind fine when well powered, & without too much tide/wave action fighting you, but if you bring all those factors above into play, they can struggle. I would often ride the 6m in the lower end of it's range, warm wind 8 - 12kts @ 100kgs, with waves and/or tide pushing downwind, and I don't switch feet and can't quite get the same angle upwind toeside (my lack of skill..) as heelside.

A fellow rider of 20kgs less on a Soul 8m say on the same day is out of sight upwind in 2 tacks, where I'm making ground but it's slow progress. It's partly the P4 sitting deep in the window, and partly being "underpowered" although it's actually a good amount of power for everything but upwind.
Certainly all true. Upwind in under 10 knots at 100 kgs, I would say is impossible. In wind that light you have to optimize riding angle just to stay on foil. The biggest issue with "upwind ability" I've noticed, is trying to get past shore break in light onshore winds. The kite won't produce enough peak power far enough forward in the wind window to drag you though the surf. I've noticed LEI foilers having better success in those conditions. Similarly, Peaks don't body drag upwind well, in general. I think once you're up and foiling they perform adequately though.

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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:53 pm

Peaks dont bodydrag upwind well?

I have the opposite experience in light wind Flyboy.

Meaning I can drag out in less wind with Peaks than LEI's, in particular when having a board under my arm.

With a Peak you can fly the kite low and let it hang, if you want, but in minimum winds, no matter if Peaks or LEI's, you have to fly the kite down and then up, in a cyclic movement.

This can be done so much more efficient with a light kite, that being a single or double skin kite - LEI's has almost no chance of doing this efficiently because of their (usually) sheer weight...

8) Peter

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Re: Flysurfer Peak Size

Postby Flyboy » Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:26 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:53 pm
Peaks dont bodydrag upwind well?

I have the opposite experience in light wind Flyboy.

Meaning I can drag out in less wind with Peaks than LEI's, in particular when having a board under my arm.

With a Peak you can fly the kite low and let it hang, if you want, but in minimum winds, no matter if Peaks or LEI's, you have to fly the kite down and then up, in a cyclic movement.

This can be done so much more efficient with a light kite, that being a single or double skin kite - LEI's has almost no chance of doing this efficiently because of their (usually) sheer weight...

8) Peter
Disagree. Yes, a light kite will hang in the air in light wind well, but it won't necessarily create upwind momentum. This is simply a function of Peaks flying further back in the window. You can sine the kite, but it doesn't create as much upwind pull as an LEI. I've actually found it more effective in lighter wind to depower the Peak and swim directly upwind.


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