Single skin foil kite with closed cell LE V2

[br44]

I got to try my new Concept Air Firefly V3 9 metre yesterday in 7 to 10 knots on a large fresh water lake (based on a wind metre about a kilometer away, there were very few white caps at the windiest point). I was using a 1500 cm. foil on a large floaty foil board. I also have the 8 metre V2 that I can compare it to.

Why get a Firefly3 9m, when you had the V2 8m?

These hybrid kites have a weakness that I don’t like: relatively hard to self-land, because the inflated half will cause the kite to get blown by the wind right away. That’s how the Peaks have a big advantage here: just dump them on the ground and they will stay relatively put.

That’s also why I am quite skeptical about the new Flysurfer Hybrid as well. I choose safe and easy self-landing (must be done every time, unless someone is around) vs. relaunch when riding (almost never happens).

Backing it down will work as always

If overpowered let it go to the safety.

Peter

No - not if the wind picks up. Not to mention, low aspect kites are (very) hard to backstall in a stiff breeze. Sure, everything works in lower winds. My point is, SS kites like the Peak offer a very high margin of error/safety when it comes to landing.

[Adventure Logs]

Why get a Firefly3 9m, when you had the V2 8m?

These hybrid kites have a weakness that I don’t like: relatively hard to self-land, because the inflated half will cause the kite to get blown by the wind right away. That’s how the Peaks have a big advantage here: just dump them on the ground and they will stay relatively put.

That’s also why I am quite skeptical about the new Flysurfer Hybrid as well. I choose safe and easy self-landing (must be done every time, unless someone is around) vs. relaunch when riding (almost never happens).

Backing it down will work as always

If overpowered let it go to the safety.

Peter

No - not if the wind picks up. Not to mention, low aspect kites are (very) hard to backstall in a stiff breeze. Sure, everything works in lower winds. My point is, SS kites like the Peak offer a very high margin of error/safety when it comes to landing.

with a lower aspect ratio, self landing should be pretty easy with just securing the bar and leaving the kite rest at the edge of the wind window and you'll just walk up the lines to secure. You usually can't do this to normal traiditonal foil kites because of their higher AR leads to them always jumping around which makes doing this very difficult. The lower aspect should meant the kite will just sit there nicely. You could do this on peaks pretty easily and I bet it will be the same for the Hybrid.

[Peter_Frank]

Agree with Adventure Logs.

You are correct br44, that lower aspect foil kites are more difficult to back down, as they reduce the aoa at the tips when on the stalling point, so they dont stall.
Just like we know from flying wings or hydrofoil wings.
So you might need a bit more sheeting distance to stall, yes.

But as Adventure says, they behave so much better when backed, they dont tuck or fold - and when down, place your board on the bar so it is fully sheeted in (and depower trim to full power) and it will stay put.

Of course, if you ride with a trim so you can sheet in fully, without backstalling, you have a problem - if you dont have a rear line "brake" like some do.

Or they can stand on the side of the window as you say, low AR and air intake inflated some of them, so wont collapse.

Have ridden several low AR both single skin and double skin kites, and they can be backed down easier - but as said requires a bit more sheeting.

Peter

[br44]

Backing it down will work as always

If overpowered let it go to the safety.

Peter

No - not if the wind picks up. Not to mention, low aspect kites are (very) hard to backstall in a stiff breeze. Sure, everything works in lower winds. My point is, SS kites like the Peak offer a very high margin of error/safety when it comes to landing.

with a lower aspect ratio, self landing should be pretty easy with just securing the bar and leaving the kite rest at the edge of the wind window and you'll just walk up the lines to secure. You usually can't do this to normal traiditonal foil kites because of their higher AR leads to them always jumping around which makes doing this very difficult. The lower aspect should meant the kite will just sit there nicely. You could do this on peaks pretty easily and I bet it will be the same for the Hybrid.

I have a quiver of Concept Air Waves, and used to own a Firefly V2 as well. Am not buying any “shoulds” here, as I know exactly how they behave. No, the kites will NOT sit at the edge of the window, unless you’re looking for trouble. If you want to go that route, you must steer the kite using the backline close to ground and use an anchor. Backstall? No, not when it blows hard. Though if others prefer or are OK with that, I certainly don’t mind.

[Adventure Logs]

No - not if the wind picks up. Not to mention, low aspect kites are (very) hard to backstall in a stiff breeze. Sure, everything works in lower winds. My point is, SS kites like the Peak offer a very high margin of error/safety when it comes to landing.

with a lower aspect ratio, self landing should be pretty easy with just securing the bar and leaving the kite rest at the edge of the wind window and you'll just walk up the lines to secure. You usually can't do this to normal traiditonal foil kites because of their higher AR leads to them always jumping around which makes doing this very difficult. The lower aspect should meant the kite will just sit there nicely. You could do this on peaks pretty easily and I bet it will be the same for the Hybrid.

I have a quiver of Concept Air Waves, and used to own a Firefly V2 as well. Am not buying any “shoulds” here, as I know exactly how they behave. No, the kites will NOT sit at the edge of the window, unless you’re looking for trouble. If you want to go that route, you must steer the kite using the backline close to ground and use an anchor. Backstall? No, not when it blows hard. Though if others prefer or are OK with that, I certainly don’t mind.

Funny, the peak does without issue. Also everything is speculation until it's released.

[jakemoore]

Concept Air Waves, and used to own a Firefly V2 as well. Am not buying any “shoulds” here, as I know exactly how they behave. No, the kites will NOT sit at the edge of the window, unless you’re looking for trouble. If you want to go that route, you must steer the kite using the backline close to ground and use an anchor. Backstall? No, not when it blows hard. Though if others prefer or are OK with that, I certainly don’t mind.

No doubt Concept Air Wave is a cool kite but its pretty much opposite a single skin. That kite has auto-relaunch and will bounce one side of the wind window to the other if you drop the bar. With its 3 galleries of bridle and no breaks the kite is practically back stall proof. Marabou V1 also parks on its shoulder when you drop the bar and easy to back stall to land even powered just as a Peak does. Completely different experience to the CA Waves in every way.

[br44]

Concept Air Waves, and used to own a Firefly V2 as well. Am not buying any “shoulds” here, as I know exactly how they behave. No, the kites will NOT sit at the edge of the window, unless you’re looking for trouble. If you want to go that route, you must steer the kite using the backline close to ground and use an anchor. Backstall? No, not when it blows hard. Though if others prefer or are OK with that, I certainly don’t mind.

No doubt Concept Air Wave is a cool kite but its pretty much opposite a single skin. That kite has auto-relaunch and will bounce one side of the wind window to the other if you drop the bar. With its 3 galleries of bridle and no breaks the kite is practically back stall proof. Marabou V1 also parks on its shoulder when you drop the bar and easy to back stall to land even powered just as a Peak does. Completely different experience to the CA Waves in every way.

This was taken out of context. Of course they are very different. The only point earlier was that SS kites like the Peak are far safer than the closed cell and hybrid kites that I all own (and not just speculate about) when it comes to landing.

How the new Flysurfer Hybrid performs during landing remains to be seen, I didn’t fly one, but I don’t expect it to be as safe as single skin kites which tend to lie flat on the ground and depower (almost) completely after QR.

[Peter_Frank]

Now it becomes interesting.

Have flown quite some low aspect small foilkites (and single skin/halfskin ones), and never had problems backing these.

In fact it goes far easier than single skin kites as they have rigidity and dont fold.

I never land any foilkite to the side, but if some says they can, I believe it of course.

One can backstall ANY foilkite, thats for sure.

If lower aspect and the sheeting isnt that sensitive, yes you need more sheeting to backstall of course.

As said, I ride with my bare over halfway out for sweetspot on say Peak kites, which gives me the best option to lean forward when carving and having a relaxed good stance.
And I can back it into the window whenever I want, when carving on even small waves

Even better, I can back them down for landing just be sheeting in fully

I know this is not the trim everyone likes, but if having a less extreme trim, you can always pull the floaters or leader lines, and ANY kite will backstall

It seems the individual differences between kites are a lot bigger than we think, and I know for sure, that our personal trim setting is hugely different....

Peter

[br44]

One can backstall ANY foilkite, thats for sure.

For an exception that proves the rule, fly the Concept Air Wave. Also see the earlier description from JakeMoore. I have backstalled it, but it is not easy, and I do not recommend trying it at the top of the wind range. It won’t work and you may get in trouble. The Firefly is easier to backstall, but not by a lot.

To backstall, I do not even bother with the bar - I grab the leader lines. Have backstalled Peaks too, no problem.

One discrepancy here between us is apparently the wind range. I only have in mind the top of the wind range, or even better, being overpowered well beyond that. The consistent, medium and light wind days do not matter here, because anything will work then.

Personally I found myself choosing Peaks a lot lately because I do not want to worry about the landing in case the wind picks up and I am the last (or only) one out there. I have had a number of sessions like this, it’s not just a hypothetical scenario. The peace of mind from knowing that I can safely land a Peak alone no matter what (and without an anchor set up in advance) is a key ingredient - an insurance policy - that makes those sessions more fun and ultimately doable.

[merl]

Have flown quite some low aspect small foilkites (and single skin/halfskin ones), and never had problems backing these.
...
One can backstall ANY foilkite, thats for sure.

Bigger kites and lower winds, sure. But what small foils have you tried? I think small low-spect foils seem really unstable when you backstall them in higher winds. I really don't trust the firefly (4m) when backstalled in higher winds - one slip and it will pinwheel. And the concept air wave does not have the Z bridle so seems impossible to safely backstall in higher winds.