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Foil Kites with No Flag Out Line

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OzBungy
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Foil Kites with No Flag Out Line

Postby OzBungy » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:22 am

I've seen a lot of pictures of foil racers with control bars with no flag out line, only a chicken loop and a trim line.

The question is, what do the racers use for safety? Do they just ditch the whole kite in an emergency? I guess that could make some sense in a race with support boats and crew and all the rest.

I know how to stall a foil kite and/or pull in a single line using a leader. All that is easy enough to do if you have the time and space to do it.

I can't remember the last time I released any kind of kite to a flag out line. It would have to be 15-18 years. It's still a good idea to have some kind of emergency safety system.

PS About 2003 my safety leash broke and my foil kite landed on the beach in strong slightly offshore winds. The drag from the bar and lines caused the kite to sit up in hot launch position and proceed to sail off to the horizon. I chased it down the coast until it became obvious I wasn't going to catch it. Not sure I want to rely on releasing the kite as my emergency safety plan.

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Re: Foil Kites with No Flag Out Line

Postby tkaraszewski » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:39 am

Flag out lines on foil kites don't add anything to safety. The kites don't remain powered once released, they collapse into a tangled ball on the surface of the water, so they're not a big danger to people downwind if released. There's also no safety advantage to being attached to a foil kite that doesn't fly, because unlike an inflatable kite, you can't use it for flotation.

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Re: Foil Kites with No Flag Out Line

Postby OzBungy » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:10 am

Thanks for the reply. See my comment above.

Foil kites don't necessarily collapse into a ball once they fall.The drag from the bar and lines can provide enough tension to cause the kite to sit up on its tail and sail away.

True they're moving fairly slowly, but its a bit anti-social to simply let a kite go with the slightly optimistic hope it's not going to get in anybody's way.

A couple of times used to use this "feature" with foil kites in the surf. Things get out of hand so release and let the kite self-sail itself to the beach (very wide tidal deserted surf beach). Chase it down, grab the bar, relaunch and continue.

All this happened on fairly low aspect, thick profile foil kites. I guess a 6:1AR foil kite might be a bit more likely to self crumple on release.

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tkaraszewski
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Re: Foil Kites with No Flag Out Line

Postby tkaraszewski » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:58 am

I have only really flown high-aspect foil kites, so that's a factor. I have never had a foil kite in a situation where I would want to flag it out. It's not the type of problem that tends to happen on foil kites. I've only had it happen once on an LEI kite, when it started deathlooping on me, but high aspects kites tend to fly into the water instead of looping.

I agree it's possible for a foil kite to tumble downwind and be a hazard, but it's a much smaller hazard than an LEI in the same scenario because they don't hold their shape the same way.

I run race kites on race bars with no flag out lines and it's never been an issue. I've been picked up by race safety boats after bow-tying kites in the water, but never needed a flag out for that. I've also self-rescued into the beach after breaking a steering line, and also didn't need a flag out for that.

There are just not very many situations where a flag out is necessary but a full release isn't, and even in these situations, pulling the full release is probably the safest course of action unless you're kiting just upwind from a beach full of swimmers, and the wind is quite strong (strong enough to make the kite a hazard). Even then, if some swimmers have to move out of the way one time so you don't die, it's actually far from the biggest hazard you take on by swimming in the ocean.

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Re: Foil Kites with No Flag Out Line

Postby evan » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:43 am

Race kites do flagout, pulled the QR many times twintipping a 7 and 9m in 30-40kn shallow water to save it from blowing out cells when messing up a heliloop ending up with a collapsed kite upwind of me. Better pull the QR and sort the mess out safely than having the kite open up leading edge down in the middle of the wind window. Most of the time I could just grab the bar, reset the QR and relaunch without much tangles.

It's not good for the kite but better than smashing it full force into the water. That's the reason racers don't want to flag the kite, it puts more stress on the bridle and cloth and possibly deform it permanently. With all the coach/support boats around it is less of a problem to retrieve the kite.

Also in fleet racing the most common case to hit the QR is a big Tangle at the start line, in that case it's safer if everyone completely let the kites go instead of flagging as you are less likely to have damages then.

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Re: Foil Kites with No Flag Out Line

Postby Momo_13 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:21 am

Hi,
In fact in general (depending on kite model), foil kite do not 'flag out' on front line : last time I released my Sonic2 9m in 20 to 26 kn (so not overpowered), it mades 2 to 4 'big death loop' before stopping at the ground (thanks to a street light), and I was dragged across the beach.
So I can imagine that having a death loop in the middle of a race can be a disaster. + as pointed by Evan there is a risk to damage your kite simply by the shock on bridle and canopy.
In fact lot of people (me included) never pulled their QR in an emergency situation, so they think it's useless to have a safety line.


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