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Soul v1 tips folding

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Jyoder
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby Jyoder » Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:27 pm

downunder wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:27 am


Mixer was tuned after replacing a pulley lines. It was ok back then, like a year ago.
What does that mean? Were the other pieces of the mixer checked for length against the line plan? Or were the knots lined up and then “call it good”, creating an unbalanced mixer with shrunk sections, specifically A now being too short.

The thicker lines that take the most load shrink the fastest, btw. The tips are folding because Z is effective too long now due to A shrinking and then B and C tuned to a shrunken A, leaving unshrunken Z way too long.

A quick test is to tie a loop in Z main to shorten about 4-5cm, tune B and C to new Z length, and test fly a few times, making the loop bigger or smaller to lengthen and shorten Z and find where it starts to solve the tip folding.

But this is just compensating for A shrink and really you should remake the mixer to stock lengths of all sections.
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kitexpert
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby kitexpert » Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:27 pm

Jyoder wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:27 pm
downunder wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:27 am


Mixer was tuned after replacing a pulley lines. It was ok back then, like a year ago.
What does that mean? Were the other pieces of the mixer checked for length against the line plan? Or were the knots lined up and then “call it good”, creating an unbalanced mixer with shrunk sections, specifically A now being too short.

The thicker lines that take the most load shrink the fastest, btw. The tips are folding because Z is effective too long now due to A shrinking and then B and C tuned to a shrunken A, leaving unshrunken Z way too long.

A quick test is to tie a loop in Z main to shorten about 4-5cm, tune B and C to new Z length, and test fly a few times, making the loop bigger or smaller to lengthen and shorten Z and find where it starts to solve the tip folding.

But this is just compensating for A shrink and really you should remake the mixer to stock lengths of all sections.
My experience for last 20 years of foil kites says A lines which are the most loaded don't shrink much or not at all. Z lines which don't have much loading do shrink the most if pulley lines are not counted. (I've seen nominally 1m long sparepart line measuring 0,9m, so having shrunk 10%)

Tips fold because Z is too tight, this is same as B-C being too long. This increases camber of the wing considerably and makes kite unstable. Unfortunately these changes in kite bridle have span wise differences so problems usually start from the wingtips and aren't necessarily solved by general adjustment (LMT etc.)

Wingtips are less loaded than center and there is also much shorter chord which makes them more sensitive to changes.

Quick fix for instability issues is to make Z longer. I'd like to have own adjustment for Z also and if possible for center of the wing and wingtips separately. How this can be done in practice depends on Z line row design but usually it is possible to add small lines for adjustment there, at least for general adjustment
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Breze (Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:04 pm)
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Breze
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby Breze » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:33 pm

Agree 100% with kitexpert.
in addition , if the profile has reflex , the short Z changes the profile momentum and the nose of the profile doesen`t get lifted up anymore- it get`s a frontal collapse , the folding tips
Here an example of a Z pigtail . You get the right length : Measure the difference at the black marks of the LMT btw A&Z. With fixed A-Main and Z-Main at the same level.Pulling 5kg.
If there is still collapsing tips then lengthen the outer 3-4 LCL of A. You can do this with the pink LCL of the repair kit and larks head the second LCL of 5mm-10mm between first LCL and a9-a12. Or shorten the 4 outer B with a second loop at the LCL. I don`t like this bc it`s a pita to remove these loops when they get tight.

Image
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Breze
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby Breze » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:51 pm

Another cool tool, with bringing Z to same length to A at the black marks of the LMT, via pigtails : Then you can fix with one screwdriver the A- and Z-Mains at same level. Go to the kite, pull on the LCL of A and B and C. On each row from the middle to the tips you can now check the correct profile if the knots of the last bridlesplit are on the same hight. FLMT= Full long mixer test :naughty:

PS: Have a look at the lineplan. On some of the outer rows the splitpoints does not end at the same level, but 90% does
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downunder (Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:33 am)
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downunder
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby downunder » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:51 pm

Ok,
this is from yesterday. Have a look at this pic pls. See how FLAT the LE is on tips? This is not the case on v2. It is more rounded.
DSC03565.resized.JPG
Even better view:
DSC03591.JPG
Now, have a look at what happens when I dive the kite to one side:
DSC03565.resized.JPG
DSC03591.JPG
DSC03567.resized.JPG
This behaviour is impossible to simulate on v2. Same bar, same everything. 10cm pigtail on steering lines on both.

Thoughts?

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downunder
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby downunder » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:14 pm

Here,

this was the first pic #1 off 5 pics, and it is gone after editing:
DSC03589.JPG
The comment above was for that pic: "See how FLAT the LE is on tips? This is not the case on v2. It is more rounded."

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edt
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby edt » Sun Nov 27, 2022 6:09 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:27 pm

Tips fold because Z is too tight, this is same as B-C being too long. This increases camber of the wing considerably and makes kite unstable. Unfortunately these changes in kite bridle have span wise differences so problems usually start from the wingtips and aren't necessarily solved by general adjustment (LMT etc.)

Wingtips are less loaded than center and there is also much shorter chord which makes them more sensitive to changes.

Quick fix for instability issues is to make Z longer. I'd like to have own adjustment for Z also and if possible for center of the wing and wingtips separately. How this can be done in practice depends on Z line row design but usually it is possible to add small lines for adjustment there, at least for general adjustment
This makes sense except for one thing. I don't understand why you would make Z longer on the soul (or A shorter). Flysurfer kites are specifically made so that all the adjusters are on B and C. There's lots of room on the B and C adjusters so there's no need to create an additional adjuster just tighten the B and C. There's no need to open up the bridle. It does make a lot of sense for kites without any adjusters though. I did add some adjusters on my soul at the junction of BR1 BRII and brmain and the junction of C main C1 CII and c5 etc, so that I would be able to adjust the kite risers just on the wingtip or just in the middle or any section easily but moving knots. I tested this for ages, but eventually took it all out, since the kite seemed to fly better by modifying the general adjusters only. At least this is what I found with the soul 1. It took a lot of trial and error for me to figure out this camber thing. It would be nice if people with more experience made some videos showing how all these adjusters work and not just that flysurfer cookbook one. All that video shows is how to line up marks and doesn't explain how camber works. It's hard to figure this out with trial and error which is how I've been doing it. I have a complete spreadsheet of my soul 1, measured every single line and I could put it up and show you exactly where the lines shrank. I forget exactly where right now though.

I can't tell from the photos what's wrong with the downunder soul sorry. Maybe someone else can though.
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Herman
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby Herman » Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:41 pm

Some great photos. I .found the one with the blunted leading edge, particularly at the tips, and the one with both tips curled interesting. Having studied them carefully I still have no clue what the correct diagnosis is, and so the rest of this post is just “spit balling”.

I understand the reasoning for adding a little Z….. low load more shrinkage…..more camber can mean LE more prone to tucking into a luff etc. However in both photos it could be argued that most of the load is on the A, rear flying lines are slack and the bridle lines also appear to be taking little load (might be a bit of a stretch or not!). Is this sufficient to suspect that this type of tucking can be predominantly influenced by the A risers, the outer A bridle elements may have shrunk more than the higher loaded inner elements. In other words adding a little Z or removing camber can be helpful but the shape of the arc, controlled by the A risers, also has a strong influence on tip tucking.

As already said this is just “spit balling” I am off to see how paraglider pull big ears!!
Last edited by Herman on Mon Nov 28, 2022 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby Smeagle » Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:53 pm

Photos really look like low pressure.

Will it fill better when you pull the bar? Normally when powered up there should ALWAYS be enough pressure, but as soon as you power down pressure can be gone, if kite is porous.

How many hours does the kite have?

- Oliver

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downunder
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby downunder » Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:03 pm

^
Check pls the older post, holds better or the same as v2. Maybe 50?
But, it was "anchored" with mega L of water.

It wont fly better with pulled bar. That ears are with pulled bar.

It takes quite some time to pack the kite, it is not that porous.

BTW, many of my buddies have this issue, even on 12m, and are not using the kite. It is impossible to sell it either.

The porous thingy, as I remember, was after 1000h or so. Or even 500h. But thats years and years of usage.


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