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Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

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tomtom
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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby tomtom » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:59 am

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:39 am
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:13 pm
First ride today.
Really like the stiffness of the mast. It's much stiffer than the Carbon 71cm Mast. So much more control in waves.
That's a bit surprising - why do you think it would be stiffer? :?:
Simple term explanation:
Cause most aluminium masts are stiffer than carbon masst. Aluminium alloy is very stiff material /high elasticity modulus/ and more important its stiff in all direction. Carbon fibre composite wont have modulus of carbon fibre - basicaly it is something between resin and fibre modulus and more importantly have this modulus almost only in fibre direction. Mast need strenght in all directions its loaded in very complicated manner for bend and twist. You must alternate carbon layers direction - but it ulimately means you reduce stifness in other directions. So you can have almost undbendable but very twisty mast or super stiff for torsion and very soft for bending - but not both.

To actualy make carbon mast as stiff as aluminium you must use ultra high modulus carbon and very expensive manufacturing technology. Only very best carbon mast are on pair with good ALU. /couse its not ALU and ALU/

This is foil makers dark secret :)

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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby stevez » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:45 pm

Also what gives the alu mast good strength and stiffness is the structural support offered by the internal cross bracing.
Whereas carbon masts, apart from the high end race ones, tend to have a foam core that offers very little structural support.
I'm pretty sure that if alu foils had a similar structure, with metal only on the perimeter, they would crumple immediately.
It seems it's not feasible to make a carbon foil with internal bracing without making it completely solid, and then it becomes as heavy as alu. The exception to this is the project cedrus design, and this is an interesting read on the matter
https://projectcedrus.com/cedrus-develo ... -analysis/.

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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby Flyboy » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:22 pm

gmb13 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:45 am
Flyboy wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:39 am
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:13 pm
First ride today.
Really like the stiffness of the mast. It's much stiffer than the Carbon 71cm Mast. So much more control in waves.
That's a bit surprising - why do you think it would be stiffer? :?:
I do not think it is stiffer. I know it is stiffer. I have tested the flex.

--
Gunnar
I'm not questioning whether it is stiffer ... I'm asking why. Based on your experience with various foils, what do you think the reason for the extra stiffness would be? I was under the impression that carbon, in general, offered the possibility of greater stiffness. I suppose that, overall, the stiffness depends on the inherent stiffness of the strut itself, but also, importantly, the rigidity of the connections between the various components?

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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby grigorib » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:45 pm

Let's note that aluminum profiles vary significantly in wall thickness and load handling..
I've seen some thin ones which bend upon impact and I've seen some thicker ones which will be the last thing breaking in a foil set.
Compare Liquid Force mast section to Slingshot to see huge difference.

And I've seen some wiggly play in fully assembled aluminum sets which is obviously not present in Moses setup.

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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby kostantin » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:11 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:22 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:45 am
Flyboy wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:39 am


That's a bit surprising - why do you think it would be stiffer? :?:
I do not think it is stiffer. I know it is stiffer. I have tested the flex.

--
Gunnar
I'm not questioning whether it is stiffer ... I'm asking why. Based on your experience with various foils, what do you think the reason for the extra stiffness would be? I was under the impression that carbon, in general, offered the possibility of greater stiffness. I suppose that, overall, the stiffness depends on the inherent stiffness of the strut itself, but also, importantly, the rigidity of the connections between the various components?
Greetings,

first of all comparing aluminum with carbon is like comparing a piece of toast with a piece of oak. The imgur is a copy of an Airbus working paper in my language made for a millitary project. You should be able to get this information from google in english, french or spanish easyli.
The difference between high md carbon and "regular" carbon is marginal on the technical side but not when it comes to the price. You can get a kilo of carbon for 20€ but you will have a hard time to get this amount in high md for less then €250 a kilo. Furthermore high md carbon is extremly briddle. So after all high md carbon is not the holly grail ans especially not for us.

The answer on gunnars question is hidden within his question

tks

kosta


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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby Flyboy » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:56 pm

Confusing as ever! :-?

Kosta posts a chart with a variety of long, technical, composite (!) German terms which - correct me if I'm wrong - imply that carbon is superior on every measured aspect. I understand that, in kite-foiling practice, carbon may not necessarily out-perform aluminum, depending on the quality & structure of the aluminum alloy used & the quality & structure of the carbon used. I also understand that the connection between the various components of the foil is likely to effect the stiffness. In that respect, I would expect carbon to have an advantage in that the base plate is integral to the mast.

It's not a theoretical discussion for me, in that I am trying to decide if the versatility & much lower cost of going with a new aluminum set-up rather than carbon makes sense. This is obviously partly based on the specific foil in question, as it is easy to understand that not all foils, whether carbon or aluminum, are created equal.

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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby windmaker » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:31 pm

kostantin wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:11 pm
Flyboy wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:22 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:45 am


I do not think it is stiffer. I know it is stiffer. I have tested the flex.

--
Gunnar
I'm not questioning whether it is stiffer ... I'm asking why. Based on your experience with various foils, what do you think the reason for the extra stiffness would be? I was under the impression that carbon, in general, offered the possibility of greater stiffness. I suppose that, overall, the stiffness depends on the inherent stiffness of the strut itself, but also, importantly, the rigidity of the connections between the various components?
Greetings,

first of all comparing aluminum with carbon is like comparing a piece of toast with a piece of oak. The imgur is a copy of an Airbus working paper in my language made for a millitary project. You should be able to get this information from google in english, french or spanish easyli.
The difference between high md carbon and "regular" carbon is marginal on the technical side but not when it comes to the price. You can get a kilo of carbon for 20€ but you will have a hard time to get this amount in high md for less then €250 a kilo. Furthermore high md carbon is extremly briddle. So after all high md carbon is not the holly grail ans especially not for us.

The answer on gunnars question is hidden within his question

tks

kosta

Nothing new here. There has always been differences in carbon, just like with cycling there are 500 euro or 5000 euro carbon bike frames. Good aluminium is better than cheap carbon for bikes and also foils. Judging on price (entry-level carbon foils) there is no way Moses is using high modulus carbon hence the stiffer aluminium.

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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby gmb13 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:13 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:22 pm
gmb13 wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:45 am
Flyboy wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:39 am


That's a bit surprising - why do you think it would be stiffer? :?:
I do not think it is stiffer. I know it is stiffer. I have tested the flex.

--
Gunnar
I'm not questioning whether it is stiffer ... I'm asking why. Based on your experience with various foils, what do you think the reason for the extra stiffness would be? I was under the impression that carbon, in general, offered the possibility of greater stiffness. I suppose that, overall, the stiffness depends on the inherent stiffness of the strut itself, but also, importantly, the rigidity of the connections between the various components?
There are many possible reasons for an Aluminium Mast being stiffer then a Carbon. Most have been listed above my others. Wether we are talking about Carbon or Alu parts, there is so much variation in design, materials, layup used, heat ramp used etc. that will effect how stiff the part will be. Also the connection between the mast and fuselage makes a big difference. I am not saying that Aluminium is always stiffer then Carbon. I am saying in this case when comparing the 71cm Carbon and 75cm Alu Mast from Moses, the Alu Mast is a lot stiffer.

Most Alu masts are made from T16 Tempered aluminium and are extruded. Here the extrusion profile is very important in dictating torsional stiffness. Actually so far the stiffest Surf Foil Masts I have tested are the (in order of stiffness) Indiana, Axis, Moses, Zeeko, Cloud 9. These are stiffer than any Carbon Surf masts I have tested by a long way. They are however heavier and thicker than the Carbon Foils. For Surf and Supfoiling I prefer to have a stiffer mast, even if that means up to 2kg more weight. It just feels a lot nicer to ride and it makes takeoffs on sketchy waves much easier if the Foil does not wobble. For example I did not like the Moses 873 on the 71cm Wing. That combo was too unstable for me. I had a session today with the Alu Mast and 873 and it was like riding a totally different foil.

For kiting it is a slightly different story. In waves the I prefer the stiffer mast even if it's heavier, but for freeriding and tricks I prefer to have the foil as light as possible and would choose a more flexible lighter carbon mast. In a perfect world it would be great to have a cheap carbon mast that is both super stiff and light, but at the moment we have to choose.

--
Gunnar
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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby tomtom » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:25 pm

edit this was wrote before Gunnar so sorry if something is redundant

To kosta - its not so easy

http://www.performance-composites.com/c ... ties_2.asp

In hydrofoil mast almost all that matters is stiffness. This structure has defined thickness - So what define it stiffness is young modulus of material. Normal woven CF composite has ca. 70 Gpa and significantly less than that in any other than 0 and 90 direction. UD have 135 GPA but only 10 Gpa perpendicular to fibers. So we can assume that mean YM for carbon composite in Foil mast is in 50 Gpa range.
Aluminum alloy have 72 GPA /and this 72 GPA is 72 gpa in all direction/ - and its death easy to made it repeatably good with internal I beams. Usually it has also much thicker wall because alu is much weaker /ultimate strength not stiffness/ So you end up with stiffer alu mast much easier than carbon.

To made carbon as stiff as alu you must use UHD carbon and either solid mast /no weight advantage to alu/ or with carbon internal I beams and very hi end technology /prepreg and autoclave/ So far it is very hard to make carbon mast as stiff as alu.

One cheap method can be use of hardwood or bamboo core but it is quite hard adapt it for mass production.

Now the question is how much stiff carbon mast actually had to be. And how much in torsion and how much in bend. Gunnar position /please sorry to saying for you/ is the stiffer the better and as he rode 10000000x better than me and also is very knowledgeable about gear there is no reason to not believe him.

My own experience with this is fuselage stiffness is absolute critical both in torsion and bend. This is very easy to feel - mast is harder for me to feel as i rode quite gently and not carving etc. so hard. Also water condition is changing so sometime im not sure if i feel turbulent water or wobbly mast :)

On french pioneer foil diy forums this was thing they solve over and over to death with no clear conclusion.

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Re: Unboxing: Moses Aluminium Foil Kit

Postby kostantin » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:49 pm

tomtom wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:25 pm
edit this was wrote before Gunnar so sorry if something is redundant

To kosta - its not so easy

http://www.performance-composites.com/c ... ties_2.asp

In hydrofoil mast almost all that matters is stiffness. This structure has defined thickness - So what define it stiffness is young modulus of material. Normal woven CF composite has ca. 70 Gpa and significantly less than that in any other than 0 and 90 direction. UD have 135 GPA but only 10 Gpa perpendicular to fibers. So we can assume that mean YM for carbon composite in Foil mast is in 50 Gpa range.
Aluminum alloy have 72 GPA /and this 72 GPA is 72 gpa in all direction/ - and its death easy to made it repeatably good with internal I beams. Usually it has also much thicker wall because alu is much weaker /ultimate strength not stiffness/ So you end up with stiffer alu mast much easier than carbon.

To made carbon as stiff as alu you must use UHD carbon and either solid mast /no weight advantage to alu/ or with carbon internal I beams and very hi end technology /prepreg and autoclave/ So far it is very hard to make carbon mast as stiff as alu.

One cheap method can be use of hardwood or bamboo core but it is quite hard adapt it for mass production.

Now the question is how much stiff carbon mast actually had to be. And how much in torsion and how much in bend. Gunnar position /please sorry to saying for you/ is the stiffer the better and as he rode 10000000x better than me and also is very knowledgeable about gear there is no reason to not believe him.

My own experience with this is fuselage stiffness is absolute critical both in torsion and bend. This is very easy to feel - mast is harder for me to feel as i rode quite gently and not carving etc. so hard. Also water condition is changing so sometime im not sure if i feel turbulent water or wobbly mast :)

On french pioneer foil diy forums this was thing they solve over and over to death with no clear conclusion.
I have two proto masts in my shop. Weight is around 1150gr. Base plate is extra when it comes to total weight. The masts are seamless and hollow. For reference I have another one made out of aluminum. Thickness and width are all most equal. The difference in stiffness between the alu and the carbon masts is so obvious that I saved my time to build a test bench for serious numbers.

The carbon I use is leftover from a 65meter power windmill nothing special here. I think the epoxy is the most underrated part in this discussion. We had serious issues in the mid 70's with the first Mini Nimbus. This was the first glider with the partial use of carbon ( only the spar was made out of carbon ) Since then I pay a lot of attention on the glue I use.


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