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Why shallow water is dangerous

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby Flyboy » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:13 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:15 pm
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/15-Least-Ag ... Dog-Breeds
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/five-dog-br ... t-reported
https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/best-dog ... ds/page/2/

Dog breeds have personalities and people make a choice when they bring a dog into their family. Maybe considering that toy breeds also have differing personalities can take some of the emotion away from the debate about the difference between pitbulls and great pyranees.

My own belief is that people who own large dogs should face very strict criminal and civil penalties for actions of their dogs. One bite rules are not reasonable for people with large dogs. Choose an aggressive breed at your own risk. In America we believe people can own a gun so why not keep a pitbull. In Texas a permit is needed but you can keep a Tiger. If a persons gun/pitbull/tiger gives somebody a life changing injury they should spend a year in jail.

My own personal experience is that I have sewn up a lifetimes worth of disfiguring injuries in Childrens faces. At least three of the dogs were beloved family pitbulls that never showed any aggression before this event. Maybe the parents are lying to cover their dogs behavior? For that I don't really care much for pitbull dogs and disagree with peoples decision to keep pitbulls in the same way that I disagree with peoples decision to keep firearms unsecured. Ask 100 people who take face trauma call what they think of pitbull dogs and you will get a different answer than you will get from veterinarians. Ask 100 trauma surgeons what they think of handguns and you will get a different answer than you will get from NRA members.
The tiger analogy is an apt one. No doubt a well-trained, well-treated, well-fed tiger may not act aggressively towards its keeper. However, the instinctive nature of the tiger means it always presents a potential threat & one that may suddenly pose a danger even after years of docile behaviour. The pit bull is a smaller, less deadly version of the tiger ... but one that has been specifically & artificially bred for generations to be aggressive.
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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby Havre » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:35 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:13 pm
jakemoore wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:15 pm
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/15-Least-Ag ... Dog-Breeds
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/five-dog-br ... t-reported
https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/best-dog ... ds/page/2/

Dog breeds have personalities and people make a choice when they bring a dog into their family. Maybe considering that toy breeds also have differing personalities can take some of the emotion away from the debate about the difference between pitbulls and great pyranees.

My own belief is that people who own large dogs should face very strict criminal and civil penalties for actions of their dogs. One bite rules are not reasonable for people with large dogs. Choose an aggressive breed at your own risk. In America we believe people can own a gun so why not keep a pitbull. In Texas a permit is needed but you can keep a Tiger. If a persons gun/pitbull/tiger gives somebody a life changing injury they should spend a year in jail.

My own personal experience is that I have sewn up a lifetimes worth of disfiguring injuries in Childrens faces. At least three of the dogs were beloved family pitbulls that never showed any aggression before this event. Maybe the parents are lying to cover their dogs behavior? For that I don't really care much for pitbull dogs and disagree with peoples decision to keep pitbulls in the same way that I disagree with peoples decision to keep firearms unsecured. Ask 100 people who take face trauma call what they think of pitbull dogs and you will get a different answer than you will get from veterinarians. Ask 100 trauma surgeons what they think of handguns and you will get a different answer than you will get from NRA members.
The tiger analogy is an apt one. No doubt a well-trained, well-treated, well-fed tiger may not act aggressively towards its keeper. However, the instinctive nature of the tiger means it always presents a potential threat & one that may suddenly pose a danger even after years of docile behaviour. The pit bull is a smaller, less deadly version of the tiger ... but one that has been specifically & artificially bred for generations to be aggressive.
What does artificially bred mean? How about dogs that are bred for hunting, guarding property etc.? Most dogs, at least larger ones, have not been bred to be kept as pets the way many keep them today. Even among my grandparents dogs are seen as a "tool" - the same way a horse would be considered one. You wouldn't have a dog as a pet then - you would have a dog using it for something - guarding property, hunting etc.

I think it is a completely fair conversation to have as to who should be allowed to have certain pets. I consider raising a pitbull to be aggressive a clear case of animal abuse - and should not be allowed.

As for pitbulls being worse than others. The case shouldn't be that difficult to evaluate - or find the correct data for. If you controlled for the kind of owners. Let us say you took 500 or whatever number needed families with different kind of dogs (500 per type of dog). You had certain criteria they all met. Previous experience, number of kids at certain ages, type of house, environment etc. If you then found significant differences in the type of behaviour in those dogs - I would listen. My guess is that ptibulls would not come out on top as the "worst" kind of dog in terms of potential harm. But that is a guess and the data would tell. Not sure why seemingly no-one has done such a study? And it should be interesting for many other type of dogs than just pitbulls.

Simplifying - as "pitbull" isn't one kind of dog either.

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby Havre » Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:40 pm

The second most popular dog in Norway is a "pitbull" - Staffordshire bull terrier. Unfortunately I don´t think there are any good statistics in Norway when it comes to dogs that bite. Typically when a dog attacks a child it becomes a news story though - as Norway is such a small country. Even if I obviously could not tell how often a dog attacks a child and it is never reported.

The American Staffordshire Terrier is banned here. So a good example of how "pitbulls" aren't necessarily "pitbulls" - or so considered at least in Norway.

Should probably add there are several other types of dogs banned in Norway as well - which are not "pitbulls".

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby knotwindy » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:24 pm

LOL, got it, so shallow water is dangerous because it leads to silly nonproductive non-kite related threads on kiteforum

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby Flyboy » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:11 pm

Havre wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:35 pm
Flyboy wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:13 pm
jakemoore wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:15 pm
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/15-Least-Ag ... Dog-Breeds
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/five-dog-br ... t-reported
https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/best-dog ... ds/page/2/

Dog breeds have personalities and people make a choice when they bring a dog into their family. Maybe considering that toy breeds also have differing personalities can take some of the emotion away from the debate about the difference between pitbulls and great pyranees.

My own belief is that people who own large dogs should face very strict criminal and civil penalties for actions of their dogs. One bite rules are not reasonable for people with large dogs. Choose an aggressive breed at your own risk. In America we believe people can own a gun so why not keep a pitbull. In Texas a permit is needed but you can keep a Tiger. If a persons gun/pitbull/tiger gives somebody a life changing injury they should spend a year in jail.

My own personal experience is that I have sewn up a lifetimes worth of disfiguring injuries in Childrens faces. At least three of the dogs were beloved family pitbulls that never showed any aggression before this event. Maybe the parents are lying to cover their dogs behavior? For that I don't really care much for pitbull dogs and disagree with peoples decision to keep pitbulls in the same way that I disagree with peoples decision to keep firearms unsecured. Ask 100 people who take face trauma call what they think of pitbull dogs and you will get a different answer than you will get from veterinarians. Ask 100 trauma surgeons what they think of handguns and you will get a different answer than you will get from NRA members.
The tiger analogy is an apt one. No doubt a well-trained, well-treated, well-fed tiger may not act aggressively towards its keeper. However, the instinctive nature of the tiger means it always presents a potential threat & one that may suddenly pose a danger even after years of docile behaviour. The pit bull is a smaller, less deadly version of the tiger ... but one that has been specifically & artificially bred for generations to be aggressive.
What does artificially bred mean? How about dogs that are bred for hunting, guarding property etc.? Most dogs, at least larger ones, have not been bred to be kept as pets the way many keep them today. Even among my grandparents dogs are seen as a "tool" - the same way a horse would be considered one. You wouldn't have a dog as a pet then - you would have a dog using it for something - guarding property, hunting etc.
"Artificially bred" means bred by humans, not through natural selection. Humans have eradicated hundreds of thousands of species over the centuries. Wolf populations around the world have been decimated ... but humans have created hundreds of new breeds to suit their own purposes, which as you point out may be for hunting, herding livestock, lap pets etc. The pit bull variants have been bred specially for fighting. I guess it's possible that, over time, the aggressive genes could be selectively bred out of the breed.

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby grigorib » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:18 pm

How about snakes in water?

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby Havre » Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:21 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:11 pm
Havre wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:35 pm
Flyboy wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:13 pm


The tiger analogy is an apt one. No doubt a well-trained, well-treated, well-fed tiger may not act aggressively towards its keeper. However, the instinctive nature of the tiger means it always presents a potential threat & one that may suddenly pose a danger even after years of docile behaviour. The pit bull is a smaller, less deadly version of the tiger ... but one that has been specifically & artificially bred for generations to be aggressive.
What does artificially bred mean? How about dogs that are bred for hunting, guarding property etc.? Most dogs, at least larger ones, have not been bred to be kept as pets the way many keep them today. Even among my grandparents dogs are seen as a "tool" - the same way a horse would be considered one. You wouldn't have a dog as a pet then - you would have a dog using it for something - guarding property, hunting etc.
"Artificially bred" means bred by humans, not through natural selection. Humans have eradicated hundreds of thousands of species over the centuries. Wolf populations around the world have been decimated ... but humans have created hundreds of new breeds to suit their own purposes, which as you point out may be for hunting, herding livestock, lap pets etc. The pit bull variants have been bred specially for fighting. I guess it's possible that, over time, the aggressive genes could be selectively bred out of the breed.
Wouldn't "artificially bred" go for all dogs?

If you want to follow the narrative that they are bred for fighting, which I would argue is only partially true, some have, but if they all have I would consider it to be an enormous failure, wouldn't dogs bred for guarding property against humans be a lot more dangerous to us than dogs bred to fight other dogs?

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby jakemoore » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:59 pm

https://animals.mom.com/do-you-need-a-l ... 99647.html

A friend had a wolf hybrid when she was a young adult. It was a beautiful dog very friendly. She was very proud of the fact that it would have been illegal in some states. Just sharing because breed specific is present in some states so there is a precedent. People who choose to rescue wolf dogs and pitbulls from the shelter make a choice and choose to have these dogs over Lhasa Apso's for example.
Havre wrote: If you want to follow the narrative that they are bred for fighting, which I would argue is only partially true, some have, but if they all have I would consider it to be an enormous failure, wouldn't dogs bred for guarding property against humans be a lot more dangerous to us than dogs bred to fight other dogs?
Whats the use speculating why pitbulls and rottweilers are so much more dangerous that lhasa apso's? Or boxers? Or dobermans? Or Labrador retrievers? Or golden retrievers? Or Great Danes? Or German Shepards? Or Belgian Malonois? Or Portugese water dogs? Or weimaraners? Or giant schnauzers? Or large mixed breed dogs?

Everybody who chooses to have a pitbull chose a pitbull over so many other breed of dog large and small. Not saying all pitbulls are bad dogs but still every person, city, state and nation could have the option to choose a less dangerous dog.

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby Havre » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:19 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:59 pm
https://animals.mom.com/do-you-need-a-l ... 99647.html

A friend had a wolf hybrid when she was a young adult. It was a beautiful dog very friendly. She was very proud of the fact that it would have been illegal in some states. Just sharing because breed specific is present in some states so there is a precedent. People who choose to rescue wolf dogs and pitbulls from the shelter make a choice and choose to have these dogs over Lhasa Apso's for example.
Havre wrote: If you want to follow the narrative that they are bred for fighting, which I would argue is only partially true, some have, but if they all have I would consider it to be an enormous failure, wouldn't dogs bred for guarding property against humans be a lot more dangerous to us than dogs bred to fight other dogs?
Whats the use speculating why pitbulls and rottweilers are so much more dangerous that lhasa apso's? Or boxers? Or dobermans? Or Labrador retrievers? Or golden retrievers? Or Great Danes? Or German Shepards? Or Belgian Malonois? Or Portugese water dogs? Or weimaraners? Or giant schnauzers? Or large mixed breed dogs?

Everybody who chooses to have a pitbull chose a pitbull over so many other breed of dog large and small. Not saying all pitbulls are bad dogs but still every person, city, state and nation could have the option to choose a less dangerous dog.
Not sure what you mean?

As stated earlier. The second most common dog in Norway is one of the so-called pitbulls. Why is it so popular? Hardly because we in Norway got a huge problem with dogs used for fighting. I got three friends with so-called pitbulls and two of them got small children. They are very much typical suburban families. A backyard, a dog and some kids. I have no idea why they wanted that particular kind of dog over any other, but so they did. One of them is so "feeble" he will be scared of squeaky toys. One of the other is so cuddly it is almost annoying to visit them.

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Re: Why shallow water is dangerous

Postby jakemoore » Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:33 pm

Havre wrote:
Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:19 pm
The second most common dog in Norway is one of the so-called pitbulls. Why is it so popular?
Do they ban some dog breeds in Norway? Do they enforce the ban? What about gun laws? I'm guessing Norway is more strict than the US? Maybe we are talking about different dogs?


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