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Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

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Dave K
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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Dave K » Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:47 am

Hey Peter,
Time to quit pontificating and just get some gear and go for it!! :D

If you want a decent performing low cost foil just to give it a try, I’d highly recommend the Gong XL pro with the basic 80cm Al mast. It’s 1900 sq cm with reasonably high aspect ratio and low profile (wide speed range and decent turning). I still love mine even though I’ll switch to the Moses 790/1100 as my first upgrade.

Experienced kite foilers seem to be able to start winging on smaller boards as well. I’m just an intermediate kite foiler (78 kg) and started on a 5’8” 114l SUP foil board for winging. Already downsizing to a 5’1” 90l board. My entire wing foil rig (board and foil rig) with the new board and a Moses 790 foil will weigh only 5 pounds more than my 120cm Grove Skate/Moses 633 rig. And that’s for a knee start wing board. It’s not all huge and clunky as some would make it out to be....

Compared to Gunnar and Horst, I’m a slow learning extra klutzy ole guy and finally up to the stage of working on my wing foil tacks. Still in the pain stage of 360’s. I get that it all generally looks slow and boring in flat water, but I could care less since I’m having heaps of fun! Video is the Gong pro XL and the 5’8”, 114l board.

Last edited by Dave K on Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:43 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby gmb13 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:11 am

bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:41 pm
Sorry Gunnar, but using volume of the wing looks like a totally bullshitty measure! I won't buy into that!

Hey. Just passing on what I have learned in my experience of testing a very large number of foils from most brands over a period of 10 years.

Volume basically tells me the true size of the Wing and just knowing the volume I can more or less guess what it's low end will be. The Surface area used by brands now, is not even the true area of the wing, its the projected flat area between the top and bottom surfaces and not the entire area of the wing including both surfaces.

I am not saying that Volume is the only important factor as there are so many variables, but it give me the best indication of the size of the wing as it basically combines size and thickness into one measurement. When someone tells me only the surface area of the wing I have no idea how that translates to lift and lowend. Two wings with the same area, but with different volumes will have totally different performance, and almost every time the higher volume wing gets flying with less speed, regardless of most other factors.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby ronnie » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:18 am

bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:35 am
bigtone667 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:14 am
I started winging on a 2000cm2 AXIS (102) low aspect wing. I have since moved to their 1430cm2 AXIS (101) high aspect wing and I am winging around the same range of speeds. What I get from high aspect wing is a much more dynamic fun ride.
And I suspect as I get better, I will be able to continue decreasing the front wing, rear wing and fuselage sizes.
I see in your profile gear that you also have a spitfire XXLW, have you had a chance to try that for winging?
Nicolas (Zeeko boss) says that the Spitfire XXLW suits winging.

Dave K
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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Dave K » Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:36 am

Gunnar is exactly right. Volume is just one, but very effective way of describing profile or thickness of the foil. Axis and Gong both quote volume. My first wing foil was a regular Gong XL at 1844 sq cm (projected) and 3.6 liter volume. It worked, but felt slow and draggy. As soon as I got on the Gong pro XL (1733 sq cm projected and 2.5 l volume) I never looked back. Very small difference in area but much thinner profile and higher aspect ratio. Huge difference. You hardly give up any low end with the thinner (lower lift) profile, but gain big time on the glide and upper end. I can almost guarantee that any experienced kitefoiler will want to start with a low profile foil (regardless of area) for winging. My feeble opinion

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby drsurf » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:59 pm

To Kitefoil or Wingfoil has been occupying my mind lately. I can Kitefoil well and also sell Wingfoil gear so I have access to both but haven't pursued the Wingfoil to any degree.

Today I was out kitefoiling on an Axis 110cm Tray/Moses 633 combo with a 5m Peak4 kite in 10-12 knots comfortably powered up and surfing any windswell that came through. Later in the afternoon the wind picked up to around 20 knots so I went down to a 3m Peak4 and continued having even more fun with such a lively kite.
Also at that 20 knot time a friend came out with his 4m Wingfoil on a small 5-6ft SUP with a much larger Fanatic foil than mine. He was comfortably powered up and similar in weight to me as well as being a really good Wingfoiler.
However on my 3m kite & foil gear I was faster on either tack, much more manoeuvrable, pointed higher upwind, could go deeper downwind, catch swell better, didn't have to take the weight of the kite with my arms, didn't fall off and my gear weighed very little and took up very little space. Also with my inexpensive 8m Peak4 kite I am able to start having kitefoil fun from 6-7 knots :)

I realise that my circumstances may be a little different from the average kitefoiler using an LEI kite as the Peak4 kites give me a lot more capabilities when kitefoiling, as the Peak4 thread shows viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2401224

So my question is what am I missing apart from having a lot more bulky and expensive gear and lower performance in the metrics I listed above?

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:15 pm

I dont know, what you are missing drsurf, as others have said, you gotta do it yourself and get some experience till you know, and I only talk to my friends learning it now.

I got high lifting wings for kitefoiling, but not more than the typical 12-1300 cm2 size/lift ones, as bigger do not make sense for me being average weight.

And got a useable board (not for kiting), think its 120 liter that fits the box.

Can borrow a wingsurf wing from a friend living nearby, but would of cause prefer to use my own wing and foil, as borrowing other peoples foils on something you are new to, is often a no no, at least I would try to avoid it.

This is why it is interesting for many I think, if you can use existing gear and try it out, instead of investing.
OR, if you can learn on a big wing, and then use your own kitefoil big wing later, instead of using a beginner/low wind wing (if this exists as such, but it seem the bigger the easier at first...)

Thus the question about wingsurf foilwing size at first :naughty:

Secondly, a discussion about which sizes are used now, and are there any direction in this early phase of wingfoiling, going up or down in size, or following skill level?

8) Peter

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Biggins2 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:01 pm

Here’s a bit off topic...

Regarding huge front wings...anyone tried using a 2500cm2 wing with a smallish board and a trainer kite??? Was thinking that a trainer kite must have similar power to a wing in that it can be worked and on long lines. For relaunch just sit on board, wind the lines in and hold up via bridles and let unroll at zenith.

Seems like a super cheap low maintenance idea. No pump, no harness, trainer kites are $100 bucks and a used board maybe $200. Seems like a 3m/2m quiver would work with a 2500cm wing in pretty light wind...change to a 1600cm wing in good winds....

Hmmm, might have to try this...

Any thoughts?

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Adolfo » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:05 pm

My 2 cts:
I’ve being kite foiling for +/- 4 years and a couple of months ago I started wing foiling.
If you are comfortable on a foil, and know how to windsurf, it’s a no brainer. I practiced a bit with the wing on the beach, and then just stood on the board, grabbed the wing and foiled away on the first try. 30’ minutes later I was doing flying jibes, and I’m not particularly skilled. It’s really easy.
Regarding equipment, I’m using a Starboard Hypernut, 7’4 x 30 sup, (104 lts). It’s not ideal, but is the board I had. I use it for sup surfing, and foil sup surfing. The foil is a Neil Pryde Surf Large, (+/- 1.650 cm2) (sorry Gunnar, is the only measure I know of the foil). The wing is a F-One Swing 5.0 and I’m comfortable with it from 12 to 20 /22 knots. I weight 72 kgs.
Why I’m using more the wing and less the kite?, I don’t now. But I can tell you that I just arrived from a 15 day vacation on a beach where I had lots of different conditions. Long story short is that I ended up using the wing 10 / 12 times, my kite surfboard 2 times, and never unpacked the kite foil board and foils…

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:15 pm

Interesting, nice feedback, thanks Adolfo :thumb:

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Re: Wingsurf/wingfoil, foilwing size

Postby bigtone667 » Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:29 pm

drsurf wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:59 pm
To Kitefoil or Wingfoil has been occupying my mind lately. I can Kitefoil well and also sell Wingfoil gear so I have access to both but haven't pursued the Wingfoil to any degree.

Today I was out kitefoiling on an Axis 110cm Tray/Moses 633 combo with a 5m Peak4 kite in 10-12 knots comfortably powered up and surfing any windswell that came through. Later in the afternoon the wind picked up to around 20 knots so I went down to a 3m Peak4 and continued having even more fun with such a lively kite.
Also at that 20 knot time a friend came out with his 4m Wingfoil on a small 5-6ft SUP with a much larger Fanatic foil than mine. He was comfortably powered up and similar in weight to me as well as being a really good Wingfoiler.
However on my 3m kite & foil gear I was faster on either tack, much more manoeuvrable, pointed higher upwind, could go deeper downwind, catch swell better, didn't have to take the weight of the kite with my arms, didn't fall off and my gear weighed very little and took up very little space. Also with my inexpensive 8m Peak4 kite I am able to start having kitefoil fun from 6-7 knots :)

I realise that my circumstances may be a little different from the average kitefoiler using an LEI kite as the Peak4 kites give me a lot more capabilities when kitefoiling, as the Peak4 thread shows viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2401224

So my question is what am I missing apart from having a lot more bulky and expensive gear and lower performance in the metrics I listed above?
Try it .... everything on a wing is much more visceral.


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