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Wingfoil boom or handles?

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby gmb13 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:46 pm
Anyone tried both the Duotone with a boom, and the "rest" with grab handles?

Feels a lot more right for windsurfers with a clean boom, where you can grab whereever you want intuitively.

Also, you can adjust the profile depth so possible to use in more wind without too much power.

Any downsides?
I dont mind the length of the batten, doesnt matter compared to the board lenght :wink:

But Duotone is the only one making wings this way, or ???

I know the wings can be totally different most likely, so not asking about a comparison between wings, but between bar/boom versus grab handles :D

IF anyone has tried both, maybe just on land.

Or any thoughts even if never tried?

8) Peter
I have tested most of the wings on the market.

Here is my thoughts on the boom.

1) In the beginning , for windsurfers, it feels more intuitive. However it leads to problems later down the line. Biggest one is that windsurfers try to use the wing like a sail and then start believing that things like not being able to go upwind when not foiling.

2) It is a safety hazard. When learning new tricks you will get hit by the wing and fall on it. The boom increases the chance of injury quite a lot. Also every time I tried a Duotone I damaged my board with the boom.

3) The Current boom connection on the Duotone is very flexible which leads to the Wing being unstable

4) For non windsurfers the handles are easier. Case in point, I have had Duotone teamriders who have struggled with their wings, try a WASP and immediately get it. Why? It was more intuitive for them with the handles.

5) Travelling sucks with the Boom. The Duotone pretty much rolls up like a sail when you leave the battens in.

6) Backwinded riding is very difficult with the Boom, at least with the Duotone. The Boom connection has quite a bit of play, so the wing is harder to control when backwinded.

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby Horst Sergio » Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:43 pm

Well Gunnar,
with all Respect for Your experience and even more due to it, it would be nice to hear a more independent view on stuff. ...
As this may be valid also for me and Flysurfer, I think you can see that I have no relevant connection with Duotone.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
2) It is a safety hazard. When learning new tricks you will get hit by the wing and fall on it. The boom increases the chance of injury quite a lot. Also every time I tried a Duotone I damaged my board with the boom.
A Safety hazard :o come on really? You are windsurfing, racefoiling, where you nearly killed yourself and the boom of that nasty duotone blowup toy is a safety hazard when going 20 km/h ... :D Well if you do high half backflips with it as Phil prefers :D you may be even right, but did you do that?

I agree with your other point that was not named till now. It is indeed possible to strike a hole into your boards nose during a missed jibe with the plastic tip of the boom, I would recommend to put something like a small cutted tennis ball over it, if somebody is afraid of crashing a fragile board here, I used it as it is also with my hardboard, after seeing this risk.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
3) The Current boom connection on the Duotone is very flexible which leads to the Wing being unstable
Yes maybe if the guy you borrowed it from has blown it up to 3 PSI or manipulated the connection, but in original with normal pressure it is a very good and solid connection with 10 times less play than any handle will ever have. An overpowered wing, as any, starts to be instable as profile collapses, but this has nothing to do with the connection.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
4) For non windsurfers the handles are easier. Case in point, I have had Duotone teamriders who have struggled with their wings, try a WASP and immediately get it. Why? It was more intuitive for them with the handles.
Ok, can't comment that just wonder how much of "teamriders" they have been, being beginners? I just steped up and go my first try.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
5) Travelling sucks with the Boom. The Duotone pretty much rolls up like a sail when you leave the battens in.
Yes right, has been said many times, but more relevant in the combination: air travel and with a board that is inflatable or shorter then the battens, which are the real problem, otherwise it just doesn't matter. But I would hope for duotone that they just build the next generation with splitable battens as used in some windsurfing sails, then this problem for their concept is pretty much solved.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
6) Backwinded riding is very difficult with the Boom, at least with the Duotone. The Boom connection has quite a bit of play, so the wing is harder to control when backwinded.
Could be, yes, Phil can do it, but Phil can do everything, just tried it myself a very few times so you might be right.
Just got the impression that on the other hand the more common manouver: tacking could be a lot harder with handles (as sliding hands along boom helps here a lot).
Or was it just a case that it has taken 5 month till your videos showed your first tacks?
With the duotone with boom, tacking was possible on about session nr. 5.


I think I am going to sell mine by the way as going back to 100% kiting for many reasons.
But if I ever will be on a spot with nice waves I am happy to now know how to handle wingfoils and if it would be just about wave riding I think I would choose the Ozone, not because it is all best, but because it is better in this disciplin.
As I would take duotones boom for most of the rest in wingfoiling.

So maybe not all black and white
Last edited by Horst Sergio on Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby gmb13 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:50 pm

Horst Sergio wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 12:43 pm
Well Gunnar,
with all Respect for Your experience and even more due to it, it would be nice to hear a more independent view on stuff. I am often left with the impression that there is someone behind you ready to strike on your fingers if you write something bad about brands / products you are connected to or writing something good about competitors. As this may be valid also for me and Flysurfer, I think you can see that I have no relevant connection with Duotone.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
2) It is a safety hazard. When learning new tricks you will get hit by the wing and fall on it. The boom increases the chance of injury quite a lot. Also every time I tried a Duotone I damaged my board with the boom.
A Safety hazard :o come on really? You are windsurfing, racefoiling, where you nearly killed yourself and the boom of that nasty duotone blowup toy is a safety hazard when going 20 km/h ... :D Well if you do high half backflips with it as Phil prefers :D you may be even right, but did you do that?

I agree with your other point that was not named till now. It is indeed possible to strike a hole into your boards nose during a missed jibe with the plastic tip of the boom, I would recommend to put something like a small cutted tennis ball over it, if somebody is afraid of crashing a fragile board here, I used it as it is also with my hardboard, after seeing this risk.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
3) The Current boom connection on the Duotone is very flexible which leads to the Wing being unstable
Yes maybe if the guy you borrowed it from has blown it up to 3 PSI or manipulated the connection, but in original with normal pressure it is a very good and solid connection with 10 times less play than any handle will ever have. An overpowered wing, as any, starts to be instable as profile collapses, but this has nothing to do with the connection.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
4) For non windsurfers the handles are easier. Case in point, I have had Duotone teamriders who have struggled with their wings, try a WASP and immediately get it. Why? It was more intuitive for them with the handles.
Ok, can't comment that just wonder how much of "teamriders" they have been, being beginners? I just steped up and go my first try.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
5) Travelling sucks with the Boom. The Duotone pretty much rolls up like a sail when you leave the battens in.
Yes right, has been said many times, but more relevant in the combination: air travel and with a board that is inflatable or shorter then the battens, which are the real problem, otherwise it just doesn't matter. But I would hope for duotone that they just build the next generation with splitable battens as used in some windsurfing sails, then this problem for their concept is pretty much solved.
gmb13 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:44 am
6) Backwinded riding is very difficult with the Boom, at least with the Duotone. The Boom connection has quite a bit of play, so the wing is harder to control when backwinded.
Could be, yes, Phil can do it, but Phil can do everything, just tried it myself a very few times so you might be right.
Just got the impression that on the other hand the more common manouver: tacking could be a lot harder with handles (as sliding hands along boom helps here a lot).
Or was it just a case that it has taken 5 month till your videos showed your first tacks?
With the duotone with boom, tacking was possible on about session nr. 5.


I think I am going to sell mine by the way as going back to 100% kiting for many reasons.
But if I ever will be on a spot with nice waves I am happy to now know how to handle wingfoils and if it would be just about wave riding I think I would choose the Ozone, not because it is all best, but because it is better in this disciplin.
As I would take duotones boom for most of the rest in wingfoiling.

So maybe not all black and white
You can choose to believe what you want. I am always honest about about other products and am always openminded when I test things. I think I have proved that. Your insinuations about me not knowing how hard a wing should be pumped up and that I would base an opinion on one short test are pretty insulting, but just as I am entitled to my opinion , so are you. I just do take it a bit personally when you attack me like that.

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby Horst Sergio » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:40 pm

Well Gunnar,
it is up to you if you take my not allways polite counterstatement as personal attack or as thought-provoking impulse. You may check yourself how often you have posts with open minded positiv positions about products you are not connected to or negatives about your products.

So sorry for off topic:

I anyway think, if looking for fast developing wingfoiling products with or without handle it is less about what duotone and Ozone did, but more for example to check what Gong is doing and actually they are using handles.
But would be also interesting if duotone has made a patent on the boom, I would expect no, as for example there has been also the kitewing I had 15 years before. I think the wave performance what wings origninally where made for, could stays a big argument for handles, maybe not easy to improve a heavier boom here. On the other hand apart from Phil with Balz there is another guy (both windsurfer) who has shown nice freestyle with the boom. So maybe it will seperate along this line:

Freestyle in flat: Boom
Wave: Handles
Freeride: ?

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby oldkiter » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:31 pm

bigtone667 wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:00 am
oldkiter wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:49 pm
What tube bigtone?
KItes used to occasionally come with a nylon sock for storing/transporting kites with the bladders inflated ..... I was able to acquire a 14m North one. I slightly deflate the centre strut, roll up the wings and jam the thing in. I hang the whole think from roof in my van.

One of my colleagues places his 5m Gong into padded surfboard bag. Works a treat.
Thanks!

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby gmb13 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:33 pm

Horst Sergio wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:40 pm
Well Gunnar,
it is up to you if you take my not allways polite counterstatement as personal attack or as thought-provoking impulse. You may check yourself how often you have posts with open minded positiv positions about products you are not connected to or negatives about your products.

So sorry for off topic:

I anyway think, if looking for fast developing wingfoiling products with or without handle it is less about what duotone and Ozone did, but more for example to check what Gong is doing and actually they are using handles.
But would be also interesting if duotone has made a patent on the boom, I would expect no, as for example there has been also the kitewing I had 15 years before. I think the wave performance what wings origninally where made for, could stays a big argument for handles, maybe not easy to improve a heavier boom here. On the other hand apart from Phil with Balz there is another guy (both windsurfer) who has shown nice freestyle with the boom. So maybe it will seperate along this line:

Freestyle in flat: Boom
Wave: Handles
Freeride: ?
You did not only make counterstatments. Your wording is rude and you are basically accusing me of lying and incompetence. Maybe because your first language bis not English you don't understand what you have written.

Btw. Balz's new freestyle wing videos for the last month's are without a boom.

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby Adolfo » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:37 pm

Hello Peter.
Here is my experience.
I demoed the Duotone (boom), assuming I was going to buy it. I use Duotone kites, and I like the brand. But then ended up buying a F-One Swing (handles), even though it was a 20% more expensive and I had to wait 3 weeks for it.
My choice wasn’t related with the boom or handles, but with the design of the wing.
I wanted the wing for surfing, and the Duotone is VERY unstable. If you flag it out from the front handle, it swings like crazy from one side to the other. On the other hand, the F-One just sits there waiting for when you need it. It can even be flown from the leash. Not by me, but there are some videos out there of people going down the line with the wing flying behind them from the leash while they surf.
When I first demoed the Duotone I was very surprised by the instability, so I asked around on another forum (standupzone.com). Most users recommended the F-One, and one of the answers included a couple of videos that are very illustrative, and I will try to copy here.
You can see the difference in behavior when surfing.




UA
Don’t get me wrong. I liked the boom. It is very easy to control the wing with it, especially when underpowered, and I think it is a better choice for general sailing. But for surfing, it was a No Go.
But don’t forget that what we are using this year is the version Beta of most Wings. I assume that next year’s Wings 1.0 will have most of these problems solved.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:13 pm

Thanks guys, it seems the Duotone does not "hang" that well and stable itself onehanded on the front t.ex for surfing, many say that.

But it has many other advantages in terms of visibility and in general.

Too bad noone else are using a boom and window, as this is by far the "selling point" to me, being simple and easy to see to lee, and also holding the boom and not a bunch of soft handles.

Travelling is no issue for me, dont travel with these only waveboards.

So might have to wait and see when some, or Duotone, comes out with a boom wing that hangs better.

OR, use the current, as surfing waves I do when windy on waveboards, and in light wind on kitefoils - rarely I will be able to do it on a wingfoil except for anklesnappers :wink:

Thanks for all the (very different, but you learn to sort and get the overall view...) feedback, much appreciated :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby ronnie » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:56 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:13 pm
Thanks guys, it seems the Duotone does not "hang" that well and stable itself onehanded on the front t.ex for surfing, many say that.

But it has many other advantages in terms of visibility and in general.

Too bad noone else are using a boom and window, as this is by far the "selling point" to me, being simple and easy to see to lee, and also holding the boom and not a bunch of soft handles.

Travelling is no issue for me, dont travel with these only waveboards.

So might have to wait and see when some, or Duotone, comes out with a boom wing that hangs better.

OR, use the current, as surfing waves I do when windy on waveboards, and in light wind on kitefoils - rarely I will be able to do it on a wingfoil except for anklesnappers :wink:

Thanks for all the (very different, but you learn to sort and get the overall view...) feedback, much appreciated :thumb:

8) Peter
BIB
The Kitewing has been used and has a boom. Kai Lenny using one.


The kitewing might be quite stable.


I found that the most stable position to hold a 4M Duotone wing was about 30cm back on the boom with the boom set to the longer/flatter length and it gets very unstable when held by the nose handle. Steering the Duotone with small movements from side to side (by yaw) at the 30cm position can be used to stabilise it. I tried extending the boom down with a handle 30cm back and it seemed more stable, so a curved boom like the Kitewing might improve handling a bit, but would not help for holding it by the nose.

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Re: Wingfoil boom or handles?

Postby bragnouff » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:35 pm

I have a windsurfing background, got a Gong wing, and I don't think the handles are that much of an issue compared to a boom. OK, you're not sliding your hand up or down a boom, but it's very easy to seamlessly transition from one handle to the other, and there's even enough room to have both hands temporarily on the same handle in hand to hand transitions. This doesn't require much attention, nor a visual check. And even if it did, the harsh reality of the sport is that it's all pretty much happening in slow mo, with plenty of time to spot your next hand position if needed.
Twisting your hands around the boom to alter the pitch of the wing has been touted as an advantage, but it's nowhere near as effective as using the wind to do it for you with the right back hand movement.
Arguably, the boom is better when riding one handed to wave at the camera, as you can find the perfect balance with millimetric adjustment. But that can also be done with the intermediate handles, or most likely, when we start to use a harness.


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